Aloysius Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 now I'm sure whoever you're talking to, it ain't the Thrice Holy God of The Patriarchs and Prophets, it ain't YHWH the definition of existance who is pained by our disobedience. God gave us many Names through His Divine Revelation that we should call Him by, "God" "Lord" "Father" "I AM" "YHWH" "Jesus Christ" "Holy Spirit" "Son of God", none of them are "a supreme being" God is not a supreme being, He is BEING itself. The definition of existance. You know who the supreme being of this earth is? SATAN. He rules over this earth now and leads us away by appearing as an angel of light. He convinces people he doesn't exist, and then impersonates God to lead people away from the truth. I don't know about you, but my God DIED ON A CROSS because of my sins. My God FORGIVES and offers me help to overcome my sins. He doesn't just ignore them. My God wants me to be PERFECT as the HEAVENLY FATHER is perfect. God is understanding, but His understanding doesn't mean He ignores our faults, He corrects them. my God is in war against Satan and his minions. my God is the Commander and Cheif of an Army of Angels who fight the demons who seek the destruction of souls. And My God gave me His sinless mom to help out as well: and my momma wears combat boots. anyway, done with my shpeil. I'll pray for you and I hope you stop being deceived by this spirit claiming to be God. St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, oh Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God cast into hell satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
carrdero Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 (edited) Aloysus writes: now I'm sure whoever you're talking to, it ain't the Thrice Holy God of The Patriarchs and Prophets now that is what I would call a CORRECT statement Aloysus writes: God is not a supreme being, He is BEING itself. Supreme-highest rank or authority-highest in degree or quality. I believe that GOD is Supreme and that these are accurate descriptions of GOD. In fact I recently heard that in some organized religions, GOD has just been "super-sized" for those congregational members who want more than just the Supreme portion. Aloysus writes: I don't know about you, but my God DIED ON A CROSS because of my sins. What unfathomable sins have you committed and when did this event happen? Do you enjoy sending entities to be crucified on crosses? Is this something your GOD enjoys? Aloysus writes: God is understanding, but His understanding doesn't mean He ignores our faults, He corrects them. If he corrects our faults then why does he have to die on the cross for you? Aloysus writes: I hope you stop being deceived by this spirit claiming to be God. Me too my fingers are getting tired from typing. I think that I haven't been deceived as much as I have been in wonder. If your GOD is the "Thrice Holy God of The Patriarchs and Prophets" and you are comfortable with this relationship and all it entails by all means continue this relationship. Don't let me stand in your way. But yeah, I pretty much think we are discussing two independant individual entities here, I apologize for any misunderstanding. Edited August 2, 2004 by carrdero
Aloysius Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 the devil has appeared to you as an angel of light and you have become his agent. Jesus Christ died on the Cross because the immensity of humanity's sins demanded death. He suffered and died to forgive us. Suffering is redemptive.
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 Carrdero, I will truly be praying for you. In this post, I will address the most fundamental problem with the assertions that you make, so please bear with me: God [i]is[/i] Good: not in singular instances, but in all things, and at all times. God is incapable of doing evil, by virtue of the fact that "The Good" and "God" are eternally coincident, being the same thing. For this reason, all that is good can be considered to be "of God" and all that is evil can be considered to be "not of God." Thus, God is the wellspring from which all virtues flow, and the virtues are good because they are of God. In this manner, we see that God contains all the virtues within himself, perfectly. Justice is a virtue. The logical extension then, is that God contains within himself Perfect Justice. Mercy is a virtue. The logical extension then, is that God contains within himself Perftect Mercy. These two virtues coincide perfectly in the God whom Jesus Christ taught us to call our Father. Jesus taught that only one sin (blasphemy against the Spirit) cannot be forgiven. We understand this sin to be a rejection of God's own mercy. All other sins can be forgiven, provided that a penance is done in reparation of the sin (either on earth or in Purgatory). In this manner, Perfect Justice and Perfect Mercy coincide, for all sins (save a rejecting of Mercy, which, by its very nature cannot be shown mercy) are forgiven and all sins are "paid for." So we see that the Triune God, who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, adequately contains within himself Perfect Justice and Perfect Mercy. Now, let us consider the god that you espouse, Carrdero: While, by virtue of his being god, all the same assumptions can be made, your god cannot adequately contain both Perfect Justice and Perfect Mercy. You have asserted, multiple times, that there is no external force that can harm one's relationship with God. Moreover, you have asserted that, even if we actively and voluntarily end that same relationship with God we do so "but at no extra cost to you." The god whom you espouse certainly abounds in Mercy, but he entirely lacks the virtue of Justice for, as you so eloquently put it, there is "no extra cost" if someone rejects God. The implications of this are far reaching. If your god does not contain Justice, then he is lacking in a particular virtue. If he is lacking in a particular virtue, then he is not, in his essence, the perfect Good. If he is not the perfect Good, then this implies that there is some Good that is external to your god. If there is a Good that is external to your god, then he is no longer Omnipotent and Omniscient, let alone perfect. If these things are true - as they logically must be, your "god" is really not God at all, but simply anothing imperfect entity. Thus, by logically analyzing your position and your ideas, it can be brought to light that the being you espouse as "God" is not, in fact, a god at all. I would like to remind anyone who bothers to read this post (I applogize for the length) that there is a more intellectually acceptable option: the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of the Cross, the Risen Lord and the great I AM, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, the Word made Flesh, and the eternal Logos. As I showed in the beginning section of my post, in this God - the True God - Perfect Justice can sit beside Perfect Mercy as a lion sitting with a lamb. Moreover, just as the lion retains its fearsome identity when it sits beside the lamb, so too just Justice retain its identity, even when settled beside Mercy. This, however, is true not of Carrdero's god, but only of the Trinity. Carrdero, if you wish to reply to this post, please reply to the fundamental argument, rather than select words or phrases. Thanks so much! - Your Brother In Christ, Jeff
MichaelFilo Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 2 2004, 03:28 PM'] the devil has appeared to you as an angel of light and you have become his agent. Jesus Christ died on the Cross because the immensity of humanity's sins demanded death. He suffered and died to forgive us. Suffering is redemptive. [/quote] Maybe I'm wrong, but correct me if I am, God DID NOT have to die on the cross for us, he could of done absolutly nothing but willed that salvation come to mankind and it would indeed come to mankind. However He CHOSE to die on the cross so that our relationship with him is personal, and that we may know His love for us. So in conclusion, Jesus didn't HAVE to die for us, but it was all God's plan that he would. If I'm wrong, please correct me. God Bless, Mikey
Aloysius Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 well, I think when speaking of God, He makes the rules. you're just saying if He wanted to, He didn't have to make that standard of sacrifice for sin. just like if He wanted to, He didn't have to create the laws of physics, or if He wanted to, He didn't have to create gravity or time or whatever. The way God chooses to operate defines what has to be done and what doesn't, so of course it was God's choice.
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 bump! waiting for carrdero to reply to my most recent post.
carrdero Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 (edited) When I began my search for GOD I was not looking to have the same relationship that Moses or Jesus or any of the 1st Century Christians had. I was not seeking to have the same relationship that 21st Century Christians have. I was not seeking Justice, Mercy, Salvation or prophetic insights. I was not seeking knowledge of heirarchy dogma doctrine or other religious practices. I was not seeking promises, appreciation, acceptance, praise or glory. I was not looking for the last word on Good and Evil, right or wrong. I was looking for a friend in GOD. Not a biblical relationship, not a organized religion relationship but a simple personal relationship like the ones that I conduct in this physical existence. What is GOD to me? GOD is jazz. GOD is a good martial arts film.GOD is a newborn life. I don't expect you to agree or understand my position because you may not even enjoy those things. I am a unique individual with desires, interests, needs and questions and it is comforting to K(NOW) that I have found that through my own personal relationship with GOD. How do I know that I am speaking to GOD? Because the patience, love and understanding of GOD is unmistakable. I also feel that it is GOD because there is only one Being that I know of who could speak to me in the manner that GOD does and get away with it. Since this relationship has been going on for quite some time one tends to feel comfortable encouraging others to have their own personal relationship with GOD. But many react as if I was from another planet. And you start to wonder and think; MY GOD who doesn't want their own personal relationship with GOD? I have learned there are some people envious of my relationship with GOD. I have been accused of consorting with demons from the same people who have adopted their beliefs from past historians who have acquired their relationship with GOD in the same exact manner that I have. That just because my doctrines and beliefs didn't jibe with the teachings of their church that it is me who must be incorrect. Does any of this sound familiar? There was no reasoning that was applied to any of my conclusions, there was no logic introduced to the debates and I assure you know one meditated on these thoughts or considered them for further insight. What did I receive instead from these modern day Christians? Prayers for my soul. I believe that there are many people who talk with GOD all the time. I also believe that there are some people that may not let GOD get a word in edgewise. I also believe that there are many people who talk to GOD but do not listen. I will admit a personal relationship with GOD seems unrealistic in this day and age. There are many enticing religions out there who feel that they know exactly what your spirit is desiring and are willing to support it. I opted out from that avenue and I do not regret any part of my relationship with GOD and the way that I chose to encourage it. Oh wait- there is one regret; that in this life, I didn't do it sooner. "If you talk to GOD, you are praying. If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia." -Thomas Szasz from “Schizophrenia” in The Second Sin, 1973 Edited August 2, 2004 by carrdero
Tora-Musume Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 2 2004, 02:28 PM'] the devil has appeared to you as an angel of light and you have become his agent. [/quote] If the devil appeared to him as the angel of light, should he be doing evil things as oppose to good things? From my understanding from reading some posts is that Evil is Satan and Good is GOD. Meaning that if you do good things, it's with the help and understanding of GOD. If you are doing bad things or are an accomplice to evil things, you are as what you would call Devil's agent. Carrdero? Have you done anything evil? Please be specific. I am not clear on the true evil yet. Thanks. Aloysius, please explain what makes those that do not understand Catholic religion, (hope I have phrased this sentence correctly) an agent of the devil? I am here to clarify some information. Thanks. Tora
Aloysius Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 i said that because he is saying that God is not holy, but an average guy up there in heaven who is not greived by our sins. that is a lie, and to perpetuate this lie is the work of satan. he laughs at the notion that God became man in the person of Jesus Christ and died on the Cross for our sins. That's the devils greatest loss, and it is his goal to make people think it didn't happen so that they won't accept it and he'll get more souls. carrdero, please explain to me why it took 6000 years for God to start acting the way you describe Him as acting.
Tora-Musume Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 2 2004, 02:58 PM'] Maybe I'm wrong, but correct me if I am, God DID NOT have to die on the cross for us, he could of done absolutly nothing but willed that salvation come to mankind and it would indeed come to mankind. However He CHOSE to die on the cross so that our relationship with him is personal, and that we may know His love for us. So in conclusion, Jesus didn't HAVE to die for us, but it was all God's plan that he would. If I'm wrong, please correct me. God Bless, Mikey [/quote] I don't think he had to die. He chose to die. That was his choise. Tora
Aloysius Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 read my post though,[quote]well, I think when speaking of God, He makes the rules. you're just saying if He wanted to, He didn't have to make that standard of sacrifice for sin. just like if He wanted to, He didn't have to create the laws of physics, or if He wanted to, He didn't have to create gravity or time or whatever. The way God chooses to operate defines what has to be done and what doesn't, so of course it was God's choice. [/quote] anything God does, He had to do, because He defines what must be done. it's an interesting mystery
Tora-Musume Posted August 2, 2004 Posted August 2, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 2 2004, 06:17 PM'] i said that because he is saying that God is not holy, but an average guy up there in heaven who is not greived by our sins. that is a lie, and to perpetuate this lie is the work of satan. [/quote] We need someone to greive for our sins? What kind os sins have you committed that you need to be greived for? Sorry. Personal question I think. And what would you consider a sin? Eating a candy bar when you are over weight? Calling out someone a name interms of hurting that person's feelings? Dressing inapropriately? Are these all sins? From what I read, stealing food froma grocery store is not sin if you are stealing to feed your children. But then again, why are they put in jail for doing that? I m so confussed so please clarify for me. [quote]he laughs at the notion that God became man in the person of Jesus Christ and died on the Cross for our sins. [/quote] The one laughing...is that carrdero or the devil? [quote]That's the devils greatest loss, and it is his goal to make people think it didn't happen so that they won't accept it and he'll get more souls.[/quote] What's the Devil's greatest loss? And the Devil is not getting my soul...no way..uh uh..*shakes head from left to right preffusely* It's too hot down there. And from what I read, if I was to knock on someone's door, for a drink of water, carrdero would give me water (tap water) but in a dixie cup and I have to dispose of it in front of him. Someone stated toilet water. Someone else stated toilet water that...well...never mind. Carrdero...nice website. Edited August 2, 2004 by Tora-Musume
Aloysius Posted August 3, 2004 Posted August 3, 2004 i've decided i'm gonna start infusing my posts with as much scripture as I can again from now on... [quote][b]carderro[/b] What unfathomable sins have you committed and when did this event happen? Do you enjoy sending entities to be crucified on crosses? Is this something your GOD enjoys? [/quote] laughed at, mocked, same difference... our sins greive God, because we are acting contrary to the way He wants us to act. the devil's greatest loss is Jesus Christ's victory over death, when He died and ressurected. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 1[i] Corinthians 15:55[/i] as to what is a sin... there are Ten Commandments and the Moral Teaching of the Church (read the catechism or talk to a priest 4 that) Jesus said "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." [i]St. Matthew 19:17[/i] the example of stealing food for ones family-- the owner of that food deserves something in return for that food, but if all other means are exhasted and your family is starving okay then, but nowadays that's not gonna happen there's soup kitchens and stuff. anyway, yeah, God makes clear what is moral and what is not through His Church. you don't have to be a big smarty to know either, you let your conscience be informed by Church teaching and thus you follow your conscience. Find a good examination of conscience and follow through that to know about whether or not you've sinned. The Church has the authority to bind and loose declaring what is moral and what is not, thus holding people to God's standard as it is in heaven [i]St. Matthew 16:19[/i] my sins consist of lustful thoughts and actions that are contrary to the natural order of complementary man and women, as well as sometimes pride and anger. Jesus says something about all of these things [i]St. Matthew 5:28[/i] [i] St. Matthew 5:22[/i] however, His grace is sufficient for me to overcome these sins [i] 2 Corinthians 12:9[/i] so long as I confess them [i]James 5:16[/i] and receive help from spiritual people among me (priests) [i]Galatians 6:1[/i]
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 3, 2004 Posted August 3, 2004 Carrdero, I appreciate the background, however you completely failed to address my post. A meditative, personal relationship has always been approved of - and encouraged - by the Church. However, just because a relationship is deeply personal does not make it irrational. Emotions may be irrational, but a true, deep relationship is a perfectly, beautifully rational thing. This having been said, it would be foolish to simply throw your relationship with God in a pile labeled "personal" and claim that reason should not be applied to it. Thus I would ask again for you to reply to my post in which I have proved that the "god" you claim to have a relationship with is not, in fact, God at all. Please respond to the actual points and logical conclusions that I brought up, I would really appreciate it. Thanks!
Tora-Musume Posted August 3, 2004 Posted August 3, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 2 2004, 07:07 PM'] the example of stealing food for ones family-- the owner of that food deserves something in return for that food, but if all other means are exhasted and your family is starving okay then, but nowadays that's not gonna happen there's soup kitchens and stuff. [/quote] the example of stealing food for ones family-- the owner of that food deserves something in return for that food, but if all other means are exhasted and your family is starving okay then, but nowadays that's not gonna happen there's soup kitchens and stuff. nowadays, it's still happening. There are some people in this world that cannot or is unable to attend 3 trips to the (soup kitchens and stuff). I know of one entity that lived no wheres near a soup kitchen but lived really close to a store. It was explained to this young man that everything will be provided for him when he has stepped out into the world and be able to live independently that he can receive all the food that he needs (not from the store that is). The SYSTEM did not allow him and pretty much lied to him. So what did GOD offer him? Seemed like the choice that this entity made was the help of the devil. This young man was starving. This young man needed a family to love him. What love surrounded him was nothing more than other entities with guns and knives, (other's who have as you would say, become the devils agent). I wouldn't call this even remotely close to a family of love. But for this young man, it was all that he had. This young man was abandoned. Are we suppose to be GOD's servants? If we are, where were we when this young man needed us? Where were we when all entities that need us when they are in need of help to avoid being brought down along with the devil as to not become one of the devils agent? If you see a man or a woman on the side of the road trying to flag down a car for a ride home, would you stop and let that entity into your car? What if they are one of the devils agents? Remember, we are suppose to be GOD's servants.
carrdero Posted August 3, 2004 Posted August 3, 2004 Aloysus writes: carrdero, please explain to me why it took 6000 years for God to start acting the way you describe Him as acting Good question. Actually I really cannot be sure how GOD acted 6000, 5000, 4000, 3000 years ago because I wasn't present during that period. Nobody in this generation has any insight to exactly what went on during that period. Now there is the Bible but I cannot entrust the Bible to depict an accurate picture of what the times were like or what GOD was thinking. There is too much mystery into what exactly would represent the Bible. I have heard stories to the effect that the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John were not written until 30 years after Jesus' death. 30 years!! I'm sorry but that is to many years for me. In school we used to play the parrot game (some of you may remember this as "telephone line") where you were given a sentence and you had to whisper in someones ear and they would whisper what you said in the next persons ear and so on until the last person would tell everyone what the message was and it really never had any resemblance to the original message. This is how the Bible is represented for me. It's the telephone line game X 1,000,000 people X 2000 years=huh?. There are too many possibilities for translation errors, personal interpretations printing errors. I am into publishing and I have experienced what it takes to put a book together and it is a really difficult process to keep the original intent and the authors original vision. Not to mention we would have to factor in the true reason why the books of the Bible were written at all (are they ficticious parables? Bedtime stories? Hallucinogenic ramblings? Is the history even of this world or our time?) and it adds up to too much conjecture. So what does somebody do? Well if you want to find out about something it is a good idea to go right to the source. That's what I did. I would believe that GOD (being the longest living entity) has had time to formulate TRUE understanding more than we have and arrive to the way that a Supreme Being should perceive existance. Has GOD made mistakes? GOD would have me believe that yes there were some mistakes made but this was before there was anyone around to laugh at GOD. This is understandable if we are to believe that GOD has arrived at infinite wisdom and great understanding. Practice makes perfect. GOD has had many moments to perfect GOD's creations. Does GOD change GOD's mind? I think so but not as much as we have to. I just believe when it comes to NATURAL LAWS and creative matters GOD has a very firm idea what works and what doesn't.
nikkan_hanil Posted August 3, 2004 Posted August 3, 2004 Good cannot be derived from evil. You can't steal from the bank and give it to the Church.
Tora-Musume Posted August 3, 2004 Posted August 3, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 2 2004, 06:17 PM'] i said that because he is saying that God is not holy, but an average guy up there in heaven who is not greived by our sins. that is a lie, and to perpetuate this lie is the work of satan. he laughs at the notion that God became man in the person of Jesus Christ and died on the Cross for our sins. [/quote] [quote]carrdero Posted: Aug 2 2004, 12:45 AM JeffCR07 writes: No offense intended, but this statement is, from a purely intellectual standpoint, ridiculous. Holiness, or Godliness, is intrinsically natural to God himself, and is unattainable to the Devil, who is eternally and fully seperated from God. No offense recieved. Again maybe another misunderstanding here when I said there is nothing really "holy" about GOD. I meant holy (Set apart for religious use or GOD's service). I don't believe there is a regime to join when you become friends with GOD. I would not encourage a relationship where my friends or acquaintences were in "service" to/of me. The friends and acquaintence that I do have are not all religious and these relationships remain worthy of encouragement to this day. I don't believe GOD would set these standards either. I believe that that is why many people shy away or become disinterested with encouraging a real, open, caring, personal relationship with GOD. With organized religion the relationship with GOD is already defined (not proven) for you. Anyone who has ever developed an honest relationship with GOD knows that no one can ever lead you away. The patience, the conversation, the LOVE and the UNDERSTANDING are far too compelling to just ignore. If any human has a fear that any other entity could break a communion with GOD the only thing that I am to conclude is that this human does not understand who GOD is or what GOD means in their lives. [/quote] I see where he stated that: [quote]another misunderstanding here when I said there is nothing really "holy" about GOD. I meant holy (Set apart for religious use or GOD's service).[/quote] I knew I read it somewhere, I just had to look for it.
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