John Kerry

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='littleflower' date='JMJ+Jul 30 2004, 06:29 PM'] again.... it is a [b]grave[/b] sin to vote for a pro-abortion candidate [/quote]
Correct.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='zwergel88' date='Jul 30 2004, 08:33 PM']
i don't consider voting for Kerry a sin, and I have only heard of one Bishop saying that voters shouldn't receive Holy Communion, i have only heard them say that of the actual person who supports abortion, which i do not [/quote]

if you support [b]Kerry[/b], you are supporting [b]Abortion[/b].....

and its Church's teaching, not one's opinion......

pax christi......

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='zwergel88' date='Jul 30 2004, 06:33 PM'] i don't consider voting for Kerry a sin, and I have only heard of one Bishop saying that voters shouldn't receive Holy Communion, i have only heard them say that of the actual person who supports abortion, which i do not [/quote]
On this issue you are in error. Cardinal Ratzinger's letter to the US Bishops made it quite clear that voting for pro-abortion canditates is a mortal sin, and one who votes for such a person, knowing the harm that they will cause to society, should not be receiving Holy Communion.

[Apotheoun]

I know of no overriding political position held by Mr. Kerry that would make voting for him a moral choice for a Catholic. Many of the issues promoted by some individuals as reasons to vote for him, and which they would hold might in some sense override Kerry's consistent anti-life position, are in fact contrary to the principle of subsidiarity in the political order. I recommend reading Pope John Paul II's Encyclical Letter [u]Centesimus Annus[/u], and in particular focusing on part 5 (the "State and Culture"), nos. 48 and 49. As the Pope points out in that document, the Social Welfare State itself is based on a faulty understanding of the powers of the State in relation to society. As a consequence, I see nothing in Kerry's various political positions in reference to the proper ordering of society that would lessen the evil caused by his constant and vociferous promotion of the destruction of innocent human life. In fact his failure to understand the true role of the State in relation to society, is another reason to keep this man out of public office.

God bless,
Todd

Edited July 31, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Dave]

[quote name='zwergel88' date='Jul 30 2004, 09:28 PM'] okay, i really must get out of this debate, because i really hate to fight with all of you, I understand, and respect your opinion, however, I will continue to support John Kerry. [/quote]
It's not our opinion ... what we say is FACT.

And if you support a pro-abortion candidate like John Kerry, then you're putting your soul in danger. What's more important -- the state of your soul or your desire to be right?

[daugher-of-Mary]

[quote]I believe that Kerry is the lesser of two evils, and I will be upholding the right to  life of innocent soldiers and civilians if I support him[/quote]

Soldiers choose to enlist with the full knowledge that they are at the disposal of their country. It is a livelihood they chose knowing that there is a great chance they will see combat. The unborn do not have choice, so we are morally responsible for doing whatever is in our power to defend them. As Catholics, we do not have a choice in the upcoming election. We are to vote for life regardless of personal opinions on the war in Iraq or anything else for that matter.

[Apotheoun]

As Cardinal Ratzinger pointed out in his letter to the US Bishops on pro-abortion politicians receiving communion:

"Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. [i]There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, [b]but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia[/b][/i]. Apart from an individual’s judgment about his worthiness to present himself to receive the Holy Eucharist, the minister of Holy Communion may find himself in the situation where he must refuse to distribute Holy Communion to someone, such as in cases of a declared excommunication, a declared interdict, or an obstinate persistence in manifest grave sin (cf. can. 915)." [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [u]Letter to US Bishops on Communion[/u], nos. 3-4]

Edited July 31, 2004 by Apotheoun

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 30 2004, 09:53 PM'] [i]There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, [b]but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia[/b][/i] [/quote]
Yes! I said this to a priest and was denied! Thank you for the ammo! I can now go over *his* head!

*grins sheepishly* I'll try to be a good little boy and not fight with the priests now. *hangs head in shame, then looks up and winks*

Peace,
Joe

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 30 2004, 05:22 PM'] Please dont hate the man.
Pray for him. [/quote]
Exactly. Having hate in one's heart is a bad thing. I don't hate Kerry. I try to pray for him. He probably supports the things he does because he thinks it's the right thing to do. Of course, he's wrong, but we need to pray that he sees that he's wrong.

God bless,

Jen

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='zwergel88' date='Jul 30 2004, 08:19 PM'] and I could not in good conscience support Bush [/quote]
Then don't support Bush -or- Kerry.

God bless,

Jen

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jul 30 2004, 11:18 PM'] Exactly. Having hate in one's heart is a bad thing. I don't hate Kerry. I try to pray for him. He probably supports the things he does because he thinks it's the right thing to do. Of course, he's wrong, but we need to pray that he sees that he's wrong. [/quote]
perhaps, but we can still hate his actions!

hmmm . . . i'm getting rather vindictive . . . bedtime for this drigan!

Peace,
Joe

[J.R.D]

all i know is that im not going for that paper pushing punk.......... and anyone whos catholic shouldnt

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Jul 31 2004, 12:45 AM'] perhaps, but we can still hate his actions!
[/quote]
Exactly. We should actually hate many of his actions.

God bless,

Jen

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='zwergel88' date='Jul 30 2004, 10:28 PM']
I would unstand this to mean, that you can't vote in favor of a [i]law[/i] supporting abortion, it doesn't say that you can't vote for a [i]candidate[/i]

okay, i really must get out of this debate, because i really hate to fight with all of you, I understand, and respect your opinion, however, I will continue to support John Kerry. [/quote]
We are not talking opinion, we are talking simple fact.
Mr Kerry is pro-abortion.
Catholics commit a grave sin voting for an abortion candidate.
You cut yourself off from Communion by voting for Kerry.

Kerry has missed most of his votes in the Senate, but he hurried back to Washington to vote against banning partial birth murder.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='zwergel88' date='Jul 30 2004, 07:21 PM'] thank you M.SIGGA, for not attacking me like some people have, i really appreciate it when people try to explain their points in a kind sort of way, without calling me names [/quote]
When I suggested dropping the argument earlier it's from past experience trying to reason with some Bush Republicans; the truth is it's immpossible There are many people who literally hate John Kerry and all Democrats and wish them ill, so it's not worth arguing this topic here. I posted earlier where you can read the words of John Paul II concerning the responsibility of Catholic voters. Read the Gospel of Life, because the Pope wrote it as instruction for all people, and talk it over with your priest if you have trouble understanding it, and pray about it before making a quick decision, and it is [b]your[/b] decision. Consider which decision is closer to fulfilling God's will and which might have the greater potential to build Christ's kingdom in this wicked country, and be sure to weigh the consequences. I'm not meaning to pontificate at all, but it's perfectly ok to have varied opinions on different topics, but opinions can potentially become spiritually dangerous and sinful when they openly, publicly, directly, and maliciously defy Christ and the Church on purpose.

God Bless

Edited July 31, 2004 by M.SIGGA

[littleflower+JMJ]

i wasn't speaking about, for or as a "Bush Repulican" cuz thats not whats its about.....and many others weren't either

only about what the Church teachings and instructs.......which really isn't up for debate on certain issues like we've mentioned in eariler posts when it comes to voting....

we all need to follow them (and not opinions) if we want to be in good standing with our conscience and our faith.....

it [i]is[/i] our decision.....but we [i]cannot[/i] ignore the facts and the Church when doing so....

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jul 30 2004, 10:01 PM']When I suggested dropping the argument earlier it's from past experience trying to reason with some Bush Republicans; the truth is it's immpossible There are many people who literally hate John Kerry and all Democrats and wish them ill, so it's not worth arguing this topic here. I posted earlier where you can read the words of John Paul II concerning the responsibility of Catholic voters. Read the Gospel of Life, because the Pope wrote it as instruction for all people, and talk it over with your priest if you have trouble understanding it, and pray about it before making a quick decision, and it is [b]your[/b] decision. Consider which decision is closer to fulfilling God's will and which might have the greater potential to build Christ's kingdom in this wicked country, and be sure to weigh the consequences. I'm not meaning to pontificate at all, but it's perfectly ok to have varied opinions on different topics, but opinions can potentially become spiritually dangerous and sinful when they openly, publicly, directly, and maliciously defy Christ and the Church on purpose.

God Bless [/quote]
Clearly, a Catholic must inform his conscience, and he must do all in his power to stop the crime of abortion. Has President Bush done enough in this area, probably not, but to vote for John Kerry, a man who has for some 30 years now advocated the mass murder of innocent human beings, can never be justified. I pray constantly for John Kerry, and so I do not hate the man; it is my fervent hope that he will at some point in time return to full communion with the Catholic Church. But I can in no way vote for a man who holds that there is a public "right" to kill innocent human beings. The answer to the problems of poverty and injustice in America will not be solved by the mass sacrifice of the unborn, and to vote for John Kerry, knowing his position on abortion and other moral issues, is a grave sin.

I agree wholeheartedly with you, when you said that we must, "Read the Gospel of Life, because the Pope wrote it as instruction for all people, and talk it over with your priest if you have trouble understanding it, and pray about it before making a quick decision, and it is [b]your[/b] decision." All of this is true, but I would add that each one of us will be judged by [b]our[/b] decision, and should we vote for a man who will enforce and promote the murder of the innocent, then the blood of those innocent unborn human beings will be on [b]our[/b] hands as well; for we will be complicit in the legalized crime of murder. When the midwives were ordered by Pharaoh to kill the new born Hebrew males, they refused, for they feared God. [Exodus 1:15-22] Catholics must act in the same way, and thus we must resist by all non-violent means the moral evils of our own day, and one of the ways to do this, is to avoid voting for anyone who supports abortion, euthanasia, homosexual marriage, etc., because in this way can we become the leaven within our society.

When Catholics stop voting for pro-abortion politicians, then perhaps it really will be possible to stop abortion. But so long as Catholics find excuses in order to vote for those who support the murder of the innocent, then it follows that it will be politically impossible to stop this horrible crime against humanity.

God bless,
Todd

Edited July 31, 2004 by Apotheoun

[mom25angels]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Jul 30 2004, 01:06 PM'] Could you say that voting for some one other then Bush is voting for Kerry? [/quote]
Yep, you sure could and you'd be right.

[mom25angels]

[quote name='Ellenita' date='Jul 30 2004, 07:30 AM']

The equation of 'right wing' politics and Catholicism is quite offensive to some of us here..... [/quote]
Well, considering that "left wing" democratic party lines are pro death I'd be happy to say I'm a Catholic "right wing" Republican.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 31 2004, 12:18 AM'] All of this is true, but I would add that each one of us will be judged by [b]our[/b] decision, and should we vote for a man who will enforce and promote the murder of the innocent, then the blood of those innocent unborn human beings will be on [b]our[/b] hands as well; for we will be complicit in the legalized crime of murder.
[/quote]
hence, "weigh the consequences."

I believe wholeheartedly that the Holy Spirit doesn't abandon the conscience of the faithful seeking His guidance. As an adult in the Church, I believe it is more important to seek out the great Spirit of God in these types of decision making that are clearly an act of conversion. I think there is a big difference between scaring people into voting prolife all-the-way - which I believe are the tactics of some with larger political agendas - and allowing people to experience a real conversion towards understanding why prolife is the only way.

The fact plain and simple is neither candidate is actually "pro-life" as the Church defines it - this is how a bishop answered me at a young adult conference when I asked him flat out who to vote for this election. He told me to pray about it and consider the decision in respect to where it places me in eternity. That is why [b]he[/b] and none of you have that sort of authority because some of the methods used here to convert people are driving people into wanting to vote for Kerry even more.

This is a cut-and-dry decision process for people who would normally under non-abortion agenda drama support the Republican party anyway. For Catholic prolife democrats this is a really difficult decision, seeing that all other agendas including other forms of repect for human life besides abortion, and our "Constitutional Right" must be put on hold. Text dumping huge automatic-excommunication documents and threats combined with "I hope kerry dies" stuff is really annoying and really doesn't help at all.