John Kerry

[Ellenita]

[quote][quote]The equation of 'right wing' politics and Catholicism is quite offensive to some of us here.....  [/quote]

Well, considering that "left wing" democratic party lines are pro death I'd be happy to say I'm a Catholic "right wing" Republican. [/quote]

Actually I didn't mean my post to indicate that the democrat party were the right party to vote for either - since I'm not an American, I don't think I know enough about your politics to make such an assertion!
However, the tone of this thread, equating a man [i]who is Catholic[/i], with the anti christ, is deeply disturbing.

From an outsiders perspective:

The fact that John Kerry has a less than perfect record in following the Church's teaching on abortion in terms of his voting pattern is being dealt with by the bishops who have publicly asked him not to receive the Blessed Sacrament, presumably until he has made confession and received the sacrament of penance -and we hardly know whether he has done this, since it is a matter between himself and his confessor!

Bush is equally perceived as preciding over a culture of death by many people - in terms of his record with the death penalty when he was governor, civilian deaths as a result of the Iraq war (and I know my country is equally culpable in this, and no, I wasn't one of those marching against it initially since I hoped that our leaders had some integrity in taking us into it......though now I have my doubts), and last I knew, abortion still remains legal under his presidency!


Being Catholic doesn't mean that you [i]have to be [/i]'right wing' or 'left wing' - no one political party will ever contain the Truth.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Ellenita' date='Jul 31 2004, 08:02 PM'] ...no one political party will ever contain the Truth. [/quote]
That sums it up... end of debate.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ellenita' date='Jul 31 2004, 06:02 PM'] The fact that John Kerry has a less than perfect record in following the Church's teaching on abortion in terms of his voting pattern is being dealt with by the bishops who have publicly asked him not to receive the Blessed Sacrament, presumably until he has made confession and received the sacrament of penance -and we hardly know whether he has done this, since it is a matter between himself and his confessor![/quote]
Yes, and it is the duty of the Bishops to tell politicians who are in open dissent from the moral teaching of the Church that they cannot receive Holy Communion until they repent of their error, and go to confession. But it is equally the duty of Catholic voters not to vote for anyone who supports positions contrary to the natural moral law.

Mr. Kerry's views on abortions, euthanasia, homosexuality, etc., are contrary to the defined dogma of the Church; and so, if a Catholic voter, knowing this to be the case, votes for Mr. Kerry they commit a grave sin and are no longer in full communion with the Catholic Church, and they, like Mr. Kerry, should not be receiving Holy Communion until they repent of their sin and are restored to communion with God and His Church.

As far as the second portion of your statement is concerned, it is most certainly true the state of Mr. Kerry's soul is between himself, God, and his confessor, but when his public actions and statements, and the policies that he promotes, are contrary to the moral teaching of the Church, then Catholics as citizens have a duty to speak out against him, and to do all in their power to see that he is not elected to any public office. Only God can judge the secrets of the heart, but that being said, we are required to judge a person's outward actions and statements to see if they conform to the moral law, and if they do not, we must not participate in their sin.

It is the duty of the laity to be the leaven within society, for it is their proper role to bring the values of the Gospel to the public arena in order to defend the rights and dignity of the human person created in the image of God and redeemed in Christ. Anything less than this is a betrayal of Christ.

In reference to your last comment in the quotation above, ". . . and we hardly know whether he has done this, since it is a matter between himself and his confessor," this is simply not the case, because we will all know when this has happened, since Mr. Kerry's statements and policies will then conform to the moral teaching of the Church, and until that happens, any repentance would be false, since repentance of necessity requires reformation ([i]metanoia[/i]) of life. Since this has not as yet happened, I cannot vote for him, because his views on abortion, stem cell research, euthanasia, homosexual marriage, homosexual "rights", etc., do not conform to the truth about man as he was created by God and redeemed by the incarnate Word.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 1, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ellenita' date='Jul 31 2004, 06:02 PM'] Being Catholic doesn't mean that you [i]have to be [/i]'right wing' or 'left wing' - no one political party will ever contain the Truth. [/quote]
Being Catholic means supporting the truth about man. It means working for the common good of society by bringing moral truth as it is known in Christ to the world. Catholics must not succumb to false ideologies of human freedom that are in fact nothing but a form of relativism and hedonism. Catholics must not support in any way programs or persons that encourage the murder of the innocent through the crime of abortion, or who try to say that deviant sexual behavior is normal and must protected by law. Catholics must stand up and proclaim loudly the truth about man which can only be found by adherence to the moral law and by seeing the dignity of humanity redeemed in Christ.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 1, 2004 by Apotheoun

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jul 31 2004, 08:02 PM'] The Pope officially endorsed Bush? [/quote]
Not offcially but a Vatican spokesman, off the record, said he would prefer him.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote]Bush is equally perceived as preciding over a culture of death by many people - in terms of his record with the death penalty when he was governor[/quote]

The death penalty is accepted by the Church, and has been since Jesus, and even way before, at the start of Judaism.

[quote]abortion still remains legal under his presidency![/quote]

Kerry promotes it, at least Bush is against it. He has made some movement against abortion. Kerry however, wants national funding. This is one of those, lesser of the 2 evils situation, if you wanna call it that, since Bush has went against abortion.


I'm no fan of Bush, and being born in Baghdad, comming from a family that grew up there, I can tell you I have no good reasons that would make me side with him. However, I am a Catholic above all else, my nationality, my heritage, my lineage. So, Bush is the obvious candidate for me. I'd also like to note that execution and war are not exactly the kind of death that JPII was talking about. If he was, then any medival city or country could be accused of it.

God bless.

[mom25angels]

[quote name='Ellenita' date='Jul 31 2004, 08:02 PM']


Being Catholic doesn't mean that you [i]have to be [/i]'right wing' or 'left wing' - no one political party will ever contain the Truth. [/quote]
Yes , this is true. No political party will ever have the fullness of Truth but we must as Catholics avoid the parties who are blatantly contrary to the Truth. The fact is that the democratic party platform is pro-abortion. I have been voting since I was 18 years old and have only ONCE voted for a democrat--he was anti abortion and his republican opponent was not. I would not, could not follow a party whose mission is to destroy the family(gay marriage) and destroy our children.

Mr. Kerry is not the anti Christ. I did not say he was nor did I say I hate him. I don't but I certainly don't think he is an honorable man. A man who votes 6 times against a ban on partial birth abortion is not an honorable man.
If this is how he "forms his conscience" in accordance to Church teaching, I wouldn't trust him to "form his conscience" on anything!!

[Brother Adam]

As far as voting (and this may have been discussed already) as a Catholic, basically the Church says I should not vote for Kerry, BUT by no means is it telling me I MUST vote for Bush. I can, say, vote for any other canidate that does not voilate any of the non-negotiables. So I could vote green-party, reformed, etc?


(I'm just curious, I support Bush for re-election, but for clarification purposes I ask)

[MC Just]

i said he was an anti-christ because he made me angry and still does. i know that's a bit harsh but that's me. Pray for me..

[MichaelFilo]

I think we all know you didn't mean it literally, and anyone who so suggests you did have no idea what you they are talking about. I'd think if you mean tit your first post wouldn't be what it was.

God bless,

Mikey

[nikkan_hanil]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jul 30 2004, 08:38 PM'] Don't the soldiers volunteer to enter the military with full knowledge that there could be a war? And they can fend for themselves, whereas the unborn fetus cannot. Kerry says he isn't going to end the war when he gets into office. I always here about how John Kerry wants to fight for those who can't fight for themselves. [/quote]
That what I said to her before...

[Rocco]

Why any catholic would support John Kerry is beyond me! Everything he stands for is agains the teachings of the church. Every Catholic needs to realize what john kerry stands for and it is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. John Kerry said in an interview that he believed that life begins at conseption but if you look at what he has voted for it is quite different. Never once has he voted to stop abortion! John Kerry is just trying to say what he thinks people want to see. Catholics shouldnt fall into the trap Kerry is laying. Voters need to understand their cantidate and decide if the cantidate reflects the teachings of the church!

Rocco

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Bro. Adam,
Green Party is pro-abortion. I think the Reform Party is pro-life but I don't know for sure. I'm just assuming since they are farther to the right politically than the Republican Party is.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='thedude' date='Aug 1 2004, 03:52 PM'] Bro. Adam,
Green Party is pro-abortion.  I think the Reform Party is pro-life but I don't know for sure.  I'm just assuming since they are farther to the right politically than the Republican Party is. [/quote]
I think the Reform Party, if you can call it a "party," has tried to remain neutral on the issue of abortion. But the American Independent Party is pro-life, and whenever the Republican and Democratic candidates in local and state elections in California have both been pro-abortion, I have voted for candidates from that party because of their support of the right to life.

It's important to look into the political positions of the person you are voting for, especially on matters touching on the moral sphere, because not everyone in a party necessarily supports the party platform.

Edited August 1, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Rocco]

In my earlier reply i was merly saying that i think kerry is to liberal to recieve the votes of a knowlegable, church going Catholic. When Kerry i rated more liberal than any of the other democrats in the senate its saying something.

Kerry scored a Senate-high 97% liberal rating for 2003, beating out Sens. Barbara Boxer (91), Hillary Clinton (89), Ted Kennedy (88), and Tom Daschle (80).

This may put everything into perspective!

Rocco

[Spiritual_Arsonist]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jul 29 2004, 10:56 PM'] I cannot stand this man. i cannot stand this "America will change the world" BS. It's the Churches job to change the world and be the beacon of light not america!!! Isnt the Anti-Christ called "the Destroyer" this man was born in the army. [/quote]
You just figured this out now??? I saw video of this guy in the 70s. HAs not changed much. I am writing in Pope John Paul for president.

[Norseman82]

This is what made me sick in Kerry's speech: he made a reference that we should not be claiming God is on our side, but that we should hope that we are on God's side. I'd believe him more if he hadn't voted against the partial-birth abortion ban.


Or did he vote against it after first voting for it?

[Rocco]

My vote for president is JP 2!

Good idea!

Rocco

[Matty_boy]

The whole point of the DNC was for John Kerry to show America who he really is. It's a shame that he didn't mention anything about any of the big issues like abortion, terrorism, the economy, his 20 years in the senate. His speech lasted 55 minutes and the whole thing was about his vietnam record, three purple hearts (two of which are allegedly self-inflicted), and not-so-subtle Bush bashing in the form of "we need a president who will blah blah blah, NOT blah blah blah." Kerry did mention all the wonderful things he wanted to do with the economy and health care but he didn't say a thing about HOW he was going to do it. Also, the movie that was shown right before his speech was edited by Steven Speilberg; they superimposed bullets in the water onto the film of John Kerry in vietnam. Does anybody care about the truth anymore?

[Matty_boy]

Furthermore, the President does not have the power to say "Abortion is no longer legal." It doesn't work that way. Congress makes the laws. Roe v. Wade isn't even legal. The Supreme Court doesn't have the power to MAKE laws, only interpret the laws. The Supreme Court abused their power by declaring abortion legal. In order to make a law, it would have to be introduced by a member of Congress, then voted on by the House of Representatives, then the Senate, then the President would have to sign it into law or veto it. So don't blame President Bush for abortion still being legal cause he can't do a [i]fill in the blank[/i] thing about it.