Loraine Boettner's Roman Catholicism

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 22 2004, 02:07 AM'] Yes, Keatings book is very popular, I suggest you get it if you have the means to [/quote]
I loved it! Well worth the money, thats for sure.

[Brother Adam]

non-Catholic Christians are indeed brothers in Christ by means of their baptism. It is a heresy to believe otherwise as you reduce baptism to symbolism.

[Brother Adam]

non-Catholic Christians are indeed brothers in Christ by means of their baptism. It is a heresy to believe otherwise as you reduce baptism to symbolism.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 22 2004, 02:49 AM'] non-Catholic Christians are indeed brothers in Christ by means of their baptism. It is a heresy to believe otherwise as you reduce baptism to symbolism. [/quote]
Once you follow a heresy, that connection is broken.

And your a heretic -non-catho christian.

Im sure The Pope Pius that stated that the unity of a person to the Church is severed if they disbelieve in the Assumption of Immaculate conception. Let me get the quote.

[MorphRC]

This solemnly proclaimed doctrine is expressly termed a "doctrine revealed by God." Pope Pius IX adds that it must be "firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful." Consequently, whoever does not make this doctrine his own or maintains an opinion contrary to it, "is shipwrecked in faith" and "seperates himself from Catholic Unity"

Pope John Paul II, General Audience of June 12, 1996 on 'Pius IX Defined the Immaculate Conception'.


[b]Source:[/b] [i]A Catechesis on Mary, Mother of God[/i]: John Paul II, Theotokos, Woman, Mother, Disciple. Pg 102 '[i]Pius IX Defined the Immaculate Conception[/i]'. Pauline Media, 2000.

[Brother Adam]

It was Pope Piux XII on November 1, 1950 who said that and you are taking it out of context, and no better than Boettner I might add.

If someone fully believes that the Catholic Church is the one true Church and yet denies what she teaches, knowing that she teaches truth, then the person is in mortal sin. Protestants however do not full under Catholic law and thus are Christians.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 21 2004, 12:30 PM'] This solemnly proclaimed doctrine is expressly termed a "doctrine revealed by God." Pope Pius IX adds that it must be "firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful." Consequently, whoever does not make this doctrine his own or maintains an opinion contrary to it, "is shipwrecked in faith" and "seperates himself from Catholic Unity"

Pope John Paul II, General Audience of June 12, 1996 on 'Pius IX Defined the Immaculate Conception'.


[b]Source:[/b] [i]A Catechesis on Mary, Mother of God[/i]: John Paul II, Theotokos, Woman, Mother, Disciple. Pg 102 '[i]Pius IX Defined the Immaculate Conception[/i]'. Pauline Media, 2000. [/quote]
Catholic unity, yes, Christiandom, no.

[homeschoolmom]

word.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 21 2004, 12:30 PM'] This solemnly proclaimed doctrine is expressly termed a "doctrine revealed by God." Pope Pius IX adds that it must be "firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful." Consequently, whoever does not make this doctrine his own or maintains an opinion contrary to it, "is shipwrecked in faith" and "[b]seperates[/b] himself from Catholic Unity"

Pope John Paul II, General Audience of June 12, 1996 on 'Pius IX Defined the Immaculate Conception'.


[b]Source:[/b] [i]A Catechesis on Mary, Mother of God[/i]: John Paul II, Theotokos, Woman, Mother, Disciple. Pg 102 '[i]Pius IX Defined the Immaculate Conception[/i]'. Pauline Media, 2000. [/quote]
hence the term "seperated brethren"

Catechism of Pope St. Pius X
[quote]29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, [b]but is united to the soul of the Church [/b]and consequently is on the way of salvation
[/quote]

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 22 2004, 03:00 AM'] It was Pope Piux XII on November 1, 1950 who said that and you are taking it out of context, and no better than Boettner I might add.

If someone fully believes that the Catholic Church is the one true Church and yet denies what she teaches, knowing that she teaches truth, then the person is in mortal sin. Protestants however do not full under Catholic law and thus are Christians. [/quote]
Lol

Pope John Paul II said that. This is a direct transcript from the speech to the book.

And what it says is plain and simple, if you dont believe in the I.C. you break yourself from Catholic Unity, hence your a heretic or 'seperated brethren' as V2 put it.

And dont [b]YOU DARE[/b] compare me to Boettner.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 22 2004, 03:02 AM'] Catholic unity, yes, Christiandom, no. [/quote]
Dont know much about Christendom except this:

The relation of this holy catholic Church to the various ecclesiastical organizations of worldwide Christendom is the source of major divisions among these organizations. Roman Catholicism has tended to equate its own institutional structure with the catholic Church, as the common usage of the latter term suggests, and some extreme Protestant groups have been ready to claim that they, and they alone, represent the true visible Church. Increasingly, however, Christians of all segments have begun to acknowledge that no one group has an exclusive right to call itself “the” Church, and they have begun to work towards the reunion of all Christians.

Encarta
© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 22 2004, 09:37 AM'] 29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation
[/quote]
I agree with that.

This ignorance thing is a beautiful loophole, sometimes i wish i was never born catholic or knew it. Id be assured of heaven.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Morph, I hope you're joking, because you most certainly would not be assured heaven.

While it is possible to persevere throughout one's life in a state of invincible ignorance, and to attain salvation though Christ's merits by adhereing to God's Law inscribed on your heart, it is very, very difficult. We are beset on all sides by the evils of the world and the sins of the flesh, and to top it off, we are at war with our very natures. The Church, the Sacraments, the Faith: This is one of the greatest gifts that can be given to someone. It's like getting handed a flashlight and a map when you're trying to navigate your way out of a pitch-black maze.

Also, a semantical point:

[quote]And what it says is plain and simple, if you dont believe in the I.C. you break yourself from Catholic Unity, hence your a heretic or 'seperated brethren' as V2 put it.[/quote]

This is incorrect in the sense that a heretic, strictly speaking, is one who begins a visible member of the Church, but professes something contrary to Dogma and refuses to recant.

You would be correct to say that they are "material heretics" in that their beliefs go against Church teaching, however, their culpability as such depends on their situation. "Seperated Brethren" is probably a more semantically correct term to use, as it adequately describes their position in relation to the Church.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[MorphRC]

The way people go on about the Ignorance thing, they make it sound like a massive loophole! Christ said hardly anyone will enter heaven, not exact words I know, but with this ignorance thing that applies to almost everyone, they're guareenteed of heaven, leading a good and godly life of course.

It just seems like a nice kick in the face to Catholics who try there best, and might not make it, but some schmuck in antartica could. Just seems like a big fat kick in the face.

[MorphRC]

btw the schmuck thing isnt being used in a derogatory term, if you think it is, go learn yiddish.

[Guest JeffCR07]

lol, please read my above post

[Brother Adam]

Morph,

I recently asked several ordained clergy what would happen to me if I died as a Protestant, having never studied nor entered into the Catholic Church.

Never once did the answer return "You will go to hell". Every single time, from every member of the clergy I recieved "You would go straight to heaven".

By a valid baptism, regardless of where or by whom it is preformed, a person is eternally united to Christ's Church. If a person remains in God's grace until death, they will go to heaven. Protestants have two things going for them: hardly ever can a sin meet the requirements for being a mortal sin, and two, even without confession, it is possible for them to be reconciled through the perfect act of contrition.

I realize the second vatican council poses a huge problem for many traditional Catholics. But the doctrines of the Church did not change, they simply made many claifications, that allowed a person like me to better understand the Catholic Church and return home.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I would like to point out that I believe Brother Adam and I are saying the same thing, though it may appear that we are contradicting each other.

Brother Adam is highlighting the fact that it is possible for a person to be saved even if they are not in perfect and visible communion with the Catholic Church.

I have also said this, though I have pointed out that the graces received through active and complete participation in the Church are indescribably huge boons and gifts that aid us in our journey through the narrow gate.

I believe Brother Adam would agree with me in this regards

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 22 2004, 08:00 AM'] Protestants have two things going for them: hardly ever can a sin meet the requirements for being a mortal sin, and two, even without confession, it is possible for them to be reconciled through the perfect act of contrition.
[/quote]
I thought a mortal sin was,

1. Grave matter (i.e. adultery, murder, etc)
2. Full consent of the will
3. Full knowledge

As a Roman Catholic I never knew if I had commited a mortal sin or not because I'd have dirty thoughts or whatever, fight to get them out of my head, and lose the battle. Apparently that's a mortal sin. But according to Bro. Adam, it's hardly ever possible to commit a mortal sin.

Thank God for His Grace that I am no longer under the Law, either that of Rome, or under the Jewish Law, but under grace.

Edited August 22, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 22 2004, 02:58 PM'] I thought a mortal sin was,

1. Grave matter (i.e. adultery, murder, etc)
2. Full consent of the will
3. Full knowledge

As a Roman Catholic I never knew if I had commited a mortal sin or not because I'd have dirty thoughts or whatever, fight to get them out of my head, and lose the battle. Apparently that's a mortal sin. But according to Bro. Adam, it's hardly ever possible to commit a mortal sin.

Thank God for His Grace that I am no longer under the Law, either that of Rome, or under the Jewish Law, but under grace. [/quote]
Dirty thoughts are common afflictions even for saints. The holiness lies in never letting them win. Ultimately, we have to choose to entertain those thoughts for us to be sinning. If we continue resisting, then we are not sinning, but only being bombarded with occasion to sin. St. Jane Francis de Chantal, whose feast was yesterday, is a perfect example. She suffered terribly evil thoughts all her life, but suffered them silently within herself and always continued to fight.

The Law of Rome is the Law of Grace. Grace manifests itself in the ability of the sinner to become the saint and to reject sin. One who embraces serious sin cuts himself off from Grace.