Loraine Boettner's Roman Catholicism

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

This is [color=green][font="Courier"]Bro. Adam[/color][/font] btw - using Mrs. Bro. Adam's screenname for a moment.

ICTHUS

There are three laws that can be in place here:

1. Jewish Law
2. Canonical Law
3. Christ's Law

Levitical law, obviously, is fulfilled with the life of Christ. We are now members of a redeemed humanity.

Canonical Law, does not dictate principals and doctrines of salvation, but instead guides the administration of the Church - as the Roberts New Rules of Order or Baptist Principles may guide a Baptist Church. You are right - you are no longer under this Catholic law as a formal heretic. (And I don't mean this as an insult, I was for many years a heretic, that is if you have officially cut all ties from the Church as it seems you have the way you talk).

Christ's law, the new law, as Christians we are under and must obey. I notice that reformed Protestants spend a great deal of time in the Pauline letters, but almost no time anywhere else. In the five years of Reformed sermons I listened I only heard a verse or two from the gospel, except for Easter Sunday when the Passion was shared. Never was the Sermon on the Mount preached, or any of what Christ said about eternal life.

Catholics believe in Grace Alone - all is through the "unmerited favor of God"
Catholics believe in faith working in love, instead of faith alone, explicitely condemned by James.

I believe you are a Calvinist now correct? Fully TULIP? I am sorry if you recieved a poor Catholic education growing up, but perhaps it's time to get aquainted with true Catholic teaching so you don't keep spewing forth such lies as Catholics believe they can strictly merit heaven.

It is not "Faith and works" it is "In obediance - Faith" Romans 1:5

Edited August 22, 2004 by Mrs. Bro. Adam

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 22 2004, 02:18 PM'] The Law of Rome is the Law of Grace. Grace manifests itself in the ability of the sinner to become the saint and to reject sin. One who embraces serious sin cuts himself off from Grace. [/quote]
We become saints at justification - why do you think Paul addressed the Christians he wrote to as 'the saints', when they had not even had their sanctification completed yet? Because they were holy, called out from the nations and set apart for God.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 22 2004, 03:21 PM'] We become saints at justification - why do you think Paul addressed the Christians he wrote to as 'the saints', when they had not even had their sanctification completed yet? Because they were holy, called out from the nations and set apart for God. [/quote]
The Bible also says that the saints can lose salvation by serious sin. If we are in the state of grace, we can be called holy, but that doesn't mean that we can't cut ourselves off from grace.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Aug 19 2004, 07:50 PM'] Also, the book "Not by Scripture Alone," which is a collection of works by some catholic apologeticists and is edited by Robert Sungenis, deals with some of the points brought up.

Budge, though "laughable" is certainly a biased term, "unscholarly" is certainly a wise description of the book. The [i]vast[/i] majority of the sources used in it are books and texts written by other protestant sources, and there are actually an alarmingly small number of original catholic sources that are cited. One would expect, especially in a book specifically about Roman Catholicism, that there would be a goodly number of primary sources, especially when considering the massive volume of literature that the Church has produced over the course of 2000 years. On a side note, many of the primary sources that [i]are[/i] used end up being portrayed dreadfully out of their context.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff [/quote]
you took the word,"unscholarly" right out of my mouth.

(Though Budge that just means we are good lawyers right?)

Ave Maria,

James III

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 22 2004, 11:30 PM'] Morph,

I recently asked several ordained clergy what would happen to me if I died as a Protestant, having never studied nor entered into the Catholic Church.

Never once did the answer return "You will go to hell". Every single time, from every member of the clergy I recieved "You would go straight to heaven".

By a valid baptism, regardless of where or by whom it is preformed, a person is eternally united to Christ's Church. If a person remains in God's grace until death, they will go to heaven. Protestants have two things going for them: hardly ever can a sin meet the requirements for being a mortal sin, and two, even without confession, it is possible for them to be reconciled through the perfect act of contrition.

I realize the second vatican council poses a huge problem for many traditional Catholics. But the doctrines of the Church did not change, they simply made many claifications, that allowed a person like me to better understand the Catholic Church and return home. [/quote]
[quote]I recently asked several ordained clergy what would happen to me if I died as a Protestant, having never studied nor entered into the Catholic Church.[/quote]

That I agree with. But if you purposely refuse not to learn, as to avoid any responsibility, then surely, ignorance cant apply, since ignorance in its general sense is; 'unintentional lack of knowledge'.

[Brother Adam]

Most people fall under "unintentional ignorance". The view they have been taught about Catholicism is that of Boettner. It's all they know, it's a lie, and it's all they care to know. They believe with their whole heart they are saved and are Christians. The Church nor the scriptures give us anything to believe otherwise. However some, like Boettner, have no excuse. That I agree with.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 20 2004, 05:25 AM'] Boettner means to say that Catholics wiped out the whole of Europe, including the entire Catholic Church and all Catholics including themselves. [/quote]
ROFLMAO

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 23 2004, 09:11 PM'] Most people fall under "unintentional ignorance". The view they have been taught about Catholicism is that of Boettner. It's all they know, it's a lie, and it's all they care to know. They believe with their whole heart they are saved and are Christians. The Church nor the scriptures give us anything to believe otherwise. However some, like Boettner, have no excuse. That I agree with. [/quote]
Yeh I agree with that totally.

Id also say that many have had the thought, 'I wonder what the Church teaches from itself', as to compare this junk with what we actually teach.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Budge' date='Aug 19 2004, 09:15 PM'] Wow Ive been wanting to read that book.

Course what answers do you have for its points except to call it laughable?

Just curious... [/quote]
Budge,

Here are a couple of links.

When looking at the facts, you'll pull out your hair wondering why people would believe such things....

The Anti-Catholic Bible
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/The_Anti_Catholic_Bible.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/The_Anti_Catholic_Bible.asp[/url]

Anti-Catholic Whoppers
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Anti_Catholic_Whoppers.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Anti_Catholic_Whoppers.asp[/url]

Catholic Inventions
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Catholic_Inventions.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Catholic_Inventions.asp[/url]

More Catholic Inventions
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/More_Catholic_Inventions.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/More_Catholic_Inventions.asp[/url]

The Inquisition
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Inquisition.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Inquisition.asp[/url]

Hunting the Whore of Babylon
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting_th..._of_Babylon.asp[/url]

Is Catholicism Pagan?
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp[/url]

Call No Man Father?
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp[/url]

Celibacy and the Priesthood
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Celibacy_and_the_Priesthood.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Celibacy_a..._Priesthood.asp[/url]

Primer on Indulgences
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp[/url]

Myths About Indulgences
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp[/url]

Exposing Catholicism: Crisis of Faith
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Exposing_Catholicism.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Exposing_Catholicism.asp[/url]



If you want to get the book, you should be able to find it in a used book store pretty cheap. When you read it, double check his claims from what he calls "facts", you'll see why Bro. Adam said it was laughable.

God Bless,
ironmonk