MichaelFilo Posted September 11, 2004 Posted September 11, 2004 (edited) Grace is (as I currently realized, thanks to Jeff) the only way to salvation. Sola Gratia would be correct. However, what role grace play in our attempts to conquer our sinful side? I believe that while grace most certainly helps to overcome sins, especially those of the repetitive nature, it is not a neccessity in those matters. Why? Because we have free will. While grace is accepted under free will, and we definatly can reject or accept it, all it does is aid us in excercizing our free will to choose to stop sinning, it isn't a neccesity. While highly unlikely, if one chooses to stop commiting a sin, no grace is needed to stop, but just the decision to quit, and then acting upon it. If one doesn't turn to grace, it doesn't somehow make them inable to quit commiting a particular sin, although it will make it harder. In conclusion, grace is neccessary for many things. Grace isn't neccessary to overcome sin(s) of repetious nature. As usual, I am up for correction. This is me just thinking, nothing definitivly taught by the Church, please no one see it as such. God bless, Mikey PS. This can totally be disproven if grace could be accepted unconcionsly if it happened to not contradict what your will is. Edited September 12, 2004 by MichaelFilo
Pio Nono Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 JMJ 9/11 - Twenty-third Saturday At least you're in line with Aristotle's and Aquinas' notion of the "habit of virtue." According to this notion, virtues and vices are formed by habitually committing virtuous or vicious acts. For instance, if I run a mile, I'll do it poorly - but with practice, it will become easy and desirable. Run a mile (poorly) -> Practice -> Run a mile (well) Likewise with virtue... Temperance (performed poorly) -> Practice -> Temperance (performed well) Likewise with vice... Theft (performed poorly and with guilt) -> Practice -> Theft (performed well without guilt) Which proves the famous quote of G.K. Chesterton, "Nothing is worth doing unless it's worth doing poorly."
MichaelFilo Posted September 12, 2004 Author Posted September 12, 2004 Any comments... it sounds like I'm on some heretical belief of the Early Church, but I think I took special care to color within the lines. God bless, Mikey
MagiDragon Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Sep 12 2004, 12:43 AM']Any comments... it sounds like I'm on some heretical belief of the Early Church, but I think I took special care to color within the lines.[/quote] I may be wrong, but i think you alluded to the answer earlier: I'm pretty sure that grace can be received unconsciously. Otherwise, how could a person who has not heard of Christ ever be saved? They couldn't *consciously* desire "grace," though they *could* desire what grace provides. er . . . i'm not sure i made any sense there . . . i think i'd best get to bed . . . g'night, Joe
MichaelFilo Posted September 12, 2004 Author Posted September 12, 2004 Good point, but I was referring to a regenerate man who is fully aware of the fullness of Truth. I'm sorry for not clarifying. God bless, Mikey PS. An unregenerate man who's never heard of the Truth receives grace by accepting "the Light". No one really knows if they are knowledgable of receiving the grace or not. It is, therefore, an arguementable fact.
MichaelFilo Posted September 12, 2004 Author Posted September 12, 2004 Yay your back Chris my good friend, sorta! [quote]Grace (gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness.[/quote] God bless Chris, Mikey
Chris Zewe Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 First off... *you're. Newb -_-. Back on topic, however, the first line of your first post states that the only way to salvation. Your definition of grace states that all men (note the lack of women, due to the sexism of the Catholic church) and angels have this grace. Wouldn't that mean that I could sacrifice a goat to satan, but since I already have grace I'm fine?
homeschoolmom Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 You know full well that "men" refers to mankind... please don't beat a dead horse.
Chris Zewe Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 12 2004, 11:31 AM'] You know full well that "men" refers to mankind... please don't beat a dead horse. [/quote] It does NOW, yes, but back then it didn't. At least not fully. Don't play word games with me, deep down you know full well that I'm right.
MichaelFilo Posted September 12, 2004 Author Posted September 12, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Sep 12 2004, 12:29 PM'] First off... *you're. Newb -_-. Back on topic, however, the first line of your first post states that the only way to salvation. Your definition of grace states that all men (note the lack of women, due to the sexism of the Catholic church) and angels have this grace. Wouldn't that mean that I could sacrifice a goat to satan, but since I already have grace I'm fine? [/quote] Since you decided to call me a newb, you've never beaten me, ever, k Ty. Back on track, Yes, Grace is the only way to salvation (Sola Gratia). Not all men have Grace, nor did I say that. Calling the Catholic Church sexist for using men, to refer to mankind is like me calling you hypocrite for having the name Chris (derived from Christ) when you reject Jesus. You can reject grace, and kill of spiritual grace. So, if you commit a mortal sin (such as sacraficing a goat to Satan) then you kill of spiritual grace. God bless, Mikey PS. On that last comment, please use some reference, otherwise, shut 'yer trap. It's always meant that unless it specifically refered to the male gender. Edited September 12, 2004 by MichaelFilo
Chris Zewe Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 You've only played me once and that was in a jewish human mirror... More later, food's here.
homeschoolmom Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 [quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Sep 12 2004, 11:38 AM'] More later, food's here. [/quote] What? Are you in a restuarant? In Christ there is no male or female, Jew or Greek, etc. "Man" = human...
Chris Zewe Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 I have no choice as far as my name goes until I'm 18, you know that as well as I do. That last comment being the goat reference? Just something I decided to throw out as an example. No, the pizza came.
MichaelFilo Posted September 12, 2004 Author Posted September 12, 2004 "Jewish human mirror" A game on Warcraft 3 that would pit a human player (using the race: humans) vs another person doing the same. The Jewish is added on because he lost. Even then, my point is mankind has always meant what it's meants. If you'd like to give a reference, then do so, otherwise, yoru arguement is as good as you complaining about Jesus and having your name as is. God bless, Mikey
jmjtina Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 [quote]Mt 5:11 Blessed are ye when [u]men[/u] shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Mt 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that [u]men[/u] should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of [u]all men [/u]for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. Mt 19:11 But he said unto them, Not all men can receive this saying, but they to whom it is given.[/quote] Jesus uses the term "men" alot, is he also sexiest? I think we can learn from the original term that has been translated. The term I believe in it's purest sense is human being. With your logic, we can say that the Declaration of Independence is sexiest as well as many other gov't document...."All men are created equal...." yet, we know it isn't, in it's truest sense, it means all human beings. The goat reference: You reject the grace that was given to you. If I were to give you something, you have the choice of accepting or rejecting, but you must deal with the consequences of your actions. God Bless.
MichaelFilo Posted September 12, 2004 Author Posted September 12, 2004 If anyone wouldn't mind commenting about the Free will thing I took some time to think up, I don't want to accept as true and be in err. God bless, Mikey
Chris Zewe Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 Why must I always debate homonyms with you? When I use "jewish" in the middle of a sentence, I'm not insulting followers of Judaism, I'm just using it as a negative adjective because it's grown on me.
jmjtina Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 [quote]In conclusion, grace is neccessary for many things. Grace isn't neccessary to overcome sin(s) of repetious nature.[/quote] I thought it was grace that helped to overcome the sins of repetious nature..... [quote]With the help of grace they grow in virtue (article 7), avoid sin, and if they sin they entrust themselves as did the prodigal son1 to the mercy of our Father in heaven (article 8). In this way they attain to the perfection of charity.[/quote] [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1.htm[/url] good question though....lemme look more into it....
MichaelFilo Posted September 12, 2004 Author Posted September 12, 2004 Did I not point that out? Anyways.... back on topic. God bless, Mikey
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