jmjtina Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 [quote]Mt 5:11 Blessed are ye when [u]men[/u] shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Mt 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that [u]men[/u] should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of [u]all men [/u]for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. Mt 19:11 But he said unto them, Not all men can receive this saying, but they to whom it is given.[/quote] Jesus uses the term "men" alot, is he also sexiest? I think we can learn from the original term that has been translated. The term I believe in it's purest sense is human being. With your logic, we can say that the Declaration of Independence is sexiest as well as many other gov't document...."All men are created equal...." yet, we know it isn't, in it's truest sense, it means all human beings. The goat reference: You reject the grace that was given to you. If I were to give you something, you have the choice of accepting or rejecting, but you must deal with the consequences of your actions. God Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 If anyone wouldn't mind commenting about the Free will thing I took some time to think up, I don't want to accept as true and be in err. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Zewe Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Why must I always debate homonyms with you? When I use "jewish" in the middle of a sentence, I'm not insulting followers of Judaism, I'm just using it as a negative adjective because it's grown on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 [quote]In conclusion, grace is neccessary for many things. Grace isn't neccessary to overcome sin(s) of repetious nature.[/quote] I thought it was grace that helped to overcome the sins of repetious nature..... [quote]With the help of grace they grow in virtue (article 7), avoid sin, and if they sin they entrust themselves as did the prodigal son1 to the mercy of our Father in heaven (article 8). In this way they attain to the perfection of charity.[/quote] [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1.htm[/url] good question though....lemme look more into it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 Did I not point that out? Anyways.... back on topic. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 As St. Paul affirms, "Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."118 But to do its work grace must uncover sin so as to convert our hearts and bestow on us "righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."119 Like a physician who probes the wound before treating it, God, by his Word and by his Spirit, casts a living light on sin: Conversion requires convincing of sin; it includes the interior judgment of conscience, and this, being a proof of the action of the Spirit of truth in man's inmost being, becomes at the same time the start of a new grant of grace and love: "Receive the Holy Spirit." Thus in this "convincing concerning sin" we discover a double gift: the gift of the truth of conscience and the gift of the certainty of redemption. The Spirit of truth is the Consoler.120 [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt1art8.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt1art8.htm[/url] hope this helps some.......still reading! God bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 Thank you Tina, but that doesn't answer the question, grace isn't neccessary for one to not commit sin, as Free Will is suffecient enough to cease from sinning. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Sep 12 2004, 12:19 PM'] Thank you Tina, but that doesn't answer the question, grace isn't neccessary for one to not commit sin, as Free Will is suffecient enough to cease from sinning. God bless, Mikey [/quote] i know, but i'm forming my answer and i just had to throw that out there.... besides, I usually think from left field........way out in left field..... :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AloysiusGhost Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 God empowers our free will, if that helpsin any way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 Sure, we have Free Will because God gave all humans Free Will, so it's out of his grace. If you understand that Free Will is a grace, then you could probably take what I said to be true, but you would be able to incorprate into it that we have free will because of grace, and so in the end we still are overcomming sin because of grace. I guess I'd have to restate my point as, we need no more grace than Free Will.... Interesting point, we don't have the Free Will to deny Free Will.. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Sep 12 2004, 12:19 PM'] as Free Will is suffecient enough to cease from sinning. [/quote] What free will?? Where is 'free will' spoken of in the Holy Scriptures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 Wait wait.... wait.... double predestination posts comming up? I don't even wanna answer that question, because you reject tradition, so I'd have to avoid it. However, I could point it out from scripture, I just want to know what I'm getting myself into, do you still believe in the heresy of double predestination? God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Sep 12 2004, 03:10 PM'] Wait wait.... wait.... double predestination posts comming up? I don't even wanna answer that question, because you reject tradition, so I'd have to avoid it. However, I could point it out from scripture, I just want to know what I'm getting myself into, do you still believe in the heresy of double predestination? God bless, Mikey [/quote] First, you're wrong on one account. I do not reject Tradition. I reject those traditions which conflict with Sacred Scripture - I affirm Sola Scriptura, not Solo Scriptura. Second, I affirm double predestination because it logically follows from God's sovereign choice of the Elect. If God unconditionally and immutably elects who will be saved, it necessarily follows that the rest make up what St. Augustine termed the 'massa damnata' - that is, those whom God has chosen not to saved and ordained to be vessels of wrath appointed to ignoble purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted September 14, 2004 Author Share Posted September 14, 2004 yay, so Jesus died for the many, or err, the Elect.... Thank you Jesus. Double predestination denies free will. The very first instance of biblical use of Free will, was in the Garden of Eden, and they had all the free will to reject God. He gave it to them, because he loves them, and wants them to choose Him. Judas, follower of Christ, and Apostle, denied Christ, out of his Free Will. The man and woman in Acts, who kept money from the apostles to share, were killed, although they were Christians, and I guess to you, they'd of been considered "saved". Free will is an inherent trait of being human. When you remove Free will, we become animals, unable to reject or accept God, but instead, follow our God given instincts, and have no say in it. Anyways, I'd like if Jeff, Apo, or Al could give me a good run down, as they are the most knowledgable in stuff like this. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 (edited) [quote]yay, so Jesus died for the many, or err, the Elect.... Thank you Jesus.[/quote] Would you rather he had left us all dead in our sins and transgressions, rather than saving a remnant? (Romans 9:27) In the words of my friend Aaron Adams, whom many of you know here at Phatmass as "Broccolifish" "[i]Grace is unfair. Wrath, is not[/i]" Each of us without fail is deserving of God's wrath and eternity in Hell. It is only because of His mercy that God saves a few. Are you going to call God unfair? I would say this to you, quoting directly from St. Paul. 1.[color=blue] "20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"[/color] - St. Paul, Romans 9:20-21 [quote]Double predestination denies free will.[/quote] So what's your point, exactly? "Free Will" is a concept foreign to the Holy Scriptures, thus, I do not believe in it. You're going to have to do better than this. [quote]The very first instance of biblical use of Free will, was in the Garden of Eden, and they had all the free will to reject God. He gave it to them, because he loves them, and wants them to choose Him.[/quote] I've read the entire Genesis account and I see no mention of "Free Will" - what version of the Bible are you using? [quote]Judas, follower of Christ, and Apostle, denied Christ, out of his Free Will. [/quote] Again, you're really going to have to do better than this. Where does the Bible say that Judas denied Christ out of 'free will'. I would contend, rather, that Judas was predestined to do so for God's glory, just as Our Blessed Lady was predestined to bear Christ for God's glory. [quote]The man and woman in Acts, who kept money from the apostles to share, were killed, although they were Christians, and I guess to you, they'd of been considered "saved".[/quote] The account of Ananias and Sapphira given in the Acts of the Apostles does not prove 'free will', but if you can show me how it does, I'd be glad to listen to you. [quote]Free will is an inherent trait of being human.[/quote] According to whom? Rome? Certainly not the Holy Scriptures, which proclaim that we are dead in our sins and transgressions! (Ephesians 2:1-6) [quote]When you remove Free will, we become animals, unable to reject or accept God, but instead, follow our God given instincts, and have no say in it. [/quote] We follow our wills without coercion. This I will grant. Our wills are free to do whatever they wish - the problem is, what they wish is [i]always evil[/i], even when its works appear good, since the works proceed not from faith - they proceed from a bad tree, and the Lord Himself says that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. It is not that the human will cannot do good. It is that it [i]will not[/i] do so. Edited September 17, 2004 by ICTHUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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