The Power Behind Free Will

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Sep 16 2004, 09:09 PM'] Would you rather he had left us all dead in our sins and transgressions, rather than saving a remnant? (Romans 9:27) In the words of my friend Aaron Adams, whom many of you know here at Phatmass as "Broccolifish"

"[i]Grace is unfair. Wrath, is not[/i]"

Each of us without fail is deserving of God's wrath and eternity in Hell. It is only because of His mercy that God saves a few. Are you going to call God unfair? I would say this to you, quoting directly from St. Paul.

1.[color=blue] "20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"[/color] - St. Paul, Romans 9:20-21

So what's your point, exactly? "Free Will" is a concept foreign to the Holy Scriptures, thus, I do not believe in it. You're going to have to do better than this.

I've read the entire Genesis account and I see no mention of "Free Will" - what version of the Bible are you using?

Again, you're really going to have to do better than this. Where does the Bible say that Judas denied Christ out of 'free will'. I would contend, rather, that Judas was predestined to do so for God's glory, just as Our Blessed Lady was predestined to bear Christ for God's glory.

The account of Ananias and Sapphira given in the Acts of the Apostles does not prove 'free will', but if you can show me how it does, I'd be glad to listen to you.

According to whom? Rome? Certainly not the Holy Scriptures, which proclaim that we are dead in our sins and transgressions! (Ephesians 2:1-6) We follow our wills without coercion. This I will grant. Our wills are free to do whatever they wish - the problem is, what they wish is [i]always evil[/i], even when its works appear good, since the works proceed not from faith - they proceed from a bad tree, and the Lord Himself says that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

It is not that the human will cannot do good. It is that it [i]will not[/i] do so. [/quote]
Well ICTHUS you again leave solid Catholic doctrine for Protestant doctrine that is, well, not so solid.

The quote "Grace is unfair, Wrath, is not." is really really a big mistake.... but I'm not going to argue someones personal quote.

Each of us without fail is deserving of God's wrath.... please remind me what we have done that would be deserving of God's wrath? WE are born with original sin, and so do not have the capability to reach heaven, until we are baptized. If somehow being a pre-born fetus that dies makes you deservent of God's wrath, then we clealry don't speak of the same God.

Nice quote, but if this is a reference to God being unfair, then clearly you misunderstood it. God is perfectly fair. The line of scripture refers to those who are born with PHYSICALLY less capability. This hardly shows that God is somehow making some people incapable of SPIRITUAL assent, and others not.

Free Will is not a concept foreign to the Holy Scriptures. Just like the Trinity isn't mentioned by name, neither is Free Will, but we see examples of it all over the place.

In Genesis, Adam and Eve fall from grace, but do so out of Free Will. This is the first example of it. Judas denied Christ on his own free will, the scriptures only say it will happen, because God knows all that is to come, but that doesn't mean he somehow predestines it.

The account of Ananias and Sapphira is an example of those who would be "saved" to you. These were part of the Christian body, but acted against the community, and were killed. They expressed Free Will.

Obviously you can argue that every occurance in Scripture that shows Free Will is what God predestined, and I would say it is out of Free Will, so let us not bicker about Free Will in scriptures, but the denial of it.

The Calvanistic idea of double predestination is a "doctrine of man". No one held it, nor did anyone even consider it until Calvin brought it up. You see, the idea that we don't have Free Will to reject of accept God, but instead God chooses who He accepts is a foreign one to the first 1500 years of Christianity.

Since you say that our wills are naturally evil, then you would have to say man is naturally evil, as God gave us our Will. So, God would give us something to seperate us from Him? If our Wills are against God, then God could create something that is intended to be set against Him, and so he cannot be the God of Good, since He can produce evil, then surely, he is the God of Evil as well. God is perfectly good, and cannot make anything that isn't good, and a Will that isn't good because it is set against God would be such an evil. If a human's Will doesn't ever want to do good, then it is to say that an atheist can never do good, nor an older Hindu man, because he is unregenerate, and cannot receive the Spirit, and has only his Will. This logic falls through real fast.

God bless,

Mikey

[Mary's Knight, La]

if i understand your post (the first one) then what your missing is that it's grace that gives strength to the will. Don't know the exact place but in the NT Paul says something to the effect of his members rebelling against him. though he will's to do good, when he does not rely on grace his will is not efficacious(sp?) of itself. It's grace that allows the desire to do good to be translated into action.

with original sin and concupiscence(sp?) we are quite unable to do good save that God helps us do it. This he does by providing the grace to overcome our inclination to sin.

read through the gospels before virtually every action Jesus prays it's grace that gives Him the power to perform the action the will is His.

[MichaelFilo]

So grace can be accepted without concious acceptance of it, just as long as it lines up with your Will?

God bless,

Mikey

[ICTHUS]

Hey Mike, sorry it took so long for me to reply, dude.

[quote]Well ICTHUS you again leave solid Catholic doctrine for Protestant doctrine that is, well, not so solid. [/quote] How is it unsound? Show me, I defy you!!!

[quote]The quote "Grace is unfair, Wrath, is not." is really really a big mistake.... but I'm not going to argue someones personal quote.[/quote] Actually, I'd like to see you (Biblically) refute Aaron's statement. From here, it seems entirely orthodox.

[quote]Each of us without fail is deserving of God's wrath.... please remind me what we have done that would be deserving of God's wrath? WE are born with original sin, and so do not have the capability to reach heaven, until we are baptized. If somehow being a pre-born fetus that dies makes you deservent of God's wrath, then we clealry don't speak of the same God. [/quote]

Let us review a few basic Biblical facts:

1. We are born in sin (Psalm 51:5)
2. God hates sin (Do I really have to provide references for this one? Here's one. THE ENTIRE OLD TESTAMENT)
3. God is sovereign and has the right to do with His creations whatever He wishes (Romans 9)
4. Before Jacob and Esau were born, God predestined that the elder should serve the younger, as it is written "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated"
5. The nation descended from Jacob were God's chosen people, Israel. The nation descended from Esau were the Edomites, a nation God hated and eventually destroyed.

Thus, if God hates sin, and a 'pre-born fetus', as you say, is born in sin, as shown above by that and other Scripture, then God has the right to beaver dam such a person if it is His will to do so. As I said above, it is [i]only because of His mercy[/i] if He should choose to regenerate such a person through His grace.

Everyone that has lived, is living, and will live, save for Christ Jesus, the Man who perfectly fulfilled the Law on our behalf, is born dead in their sins and deserving of condemnation. There are no exceptions. There is "not one righteous, no, not even one"

[quote name='Previous']Each of us without fail is deserving of God's wrath and eternity in Hell. It is only because of His mercy that God saves a few. Are you going to call God unfair? I would say this to you, quoting directly from St. Paul.

1. "20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" - St. Paul, Romans 9:20-21[/quote][quote name='MichaelFilo']Nice quote, but if this is a reference to God being unfair, then clearly you misunderstood it. God is perfectly fair. The line of scripture refers to those who are born with PHYSICALLY less capability. This hardly shows that God is somehow making some people incapable of SPIRITUAL assent, and others not.[/quote] I don't see where you are getting the physical/spiritual dichotomy, but if you can demonstrate how it must of necessity be so, from the text, then I will accept it.

In any case, I never said that St. Paul said that God wasn't fair. Being 'fair' - that is, just, is determined by [i]whatever God does[/i] or wills, since God is the source of all justice and whose Will is the standard by which we measure earthly justice. Thus, God's decision to save some and leave others to their own damnation is by default perfectly just, since it is a part of God's Will.

[quote]Free Will is not a concept foreign to the Holy Scriptures. Just like the Trinity isn't mentioned by name, neither is Free Will, but we see examples of it all over the place.[/quote] Examples such as? I defy you to find me [i]one[/i] such example! Even the one from Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) that you Roman Catholics flaunt, and I don't even accept as Scripture, need not of necessity be taken to support 'free will'!

[quote]In Genesis, Adam and Eve fall from grace, but do so out of Free Will.[/quote] Scripture please? I'm not denying that they fell from grace. I'm denying that their 'free will' had any part in it. [quote]Judas denied Christ on his own free will, the scriptures only say it will happen, because God knows all that is to come, but that doesn't mean he somehow predestines it.[/quote] On the contrary, the Scriptures say that God predestined those who will be saved and thus, who will be damned (Romans 8:28-31)

[quote]The account of Ananias and Sapphira is an example of those who would be "saved" to you.[/quote] No, they arent. Those who would be saved are those who persevere in God's grace to the end. [quote]These were part of the Christian body, but acted against the community, and were killed. [/quote] Yes. [quote]They expressed Free Will.[/quote] No, they did not - they were predestined to do so and did so as a necessity of God's foreknowledge, and I defy you to prove conclusively otherwise from Scripture.

[quote]Obviously you can argue that every occurance in Scripture that shows Free Will is what God predestined, and I would say it is out of Free Will, so let us not bicker about Free Will in scriptures, but the denial of it.[/quote] What? This is unacceptable, because it proceeds under the assumption that I am wrong, which is begging the question.

I am arguing for a negative position. You are arguing for the affirmative. It is impossible to argue positively for a negative position, thus, you must present your Scriptural arguments for 'free will', and I must refute them. Let us play at Luther and Erasmus, shall we?

By the way, you might find it worthwhile to read Martin Luther's "On the Bondage of the Will" to familiarise yourself with my position.

[quote]The Calvanistic idea of double predestination is a "doctrine of man". No one held it, nor did anyone even consider it until Calvin brought it up. [/quote] First of all, I am not arguing from a necessarily Calvinist point of view. If anything, I'm arguing from a Lutheran point of view, since I still affirm baptismal regeneration. And incidentally, St. Augustine with his 'massa damnata' theory showed an early form of double predestination.

[quote]You see, the idea that we don't have Free Will to reject of accept God, but instead God chooses who He accepts is a foreign one to the first 1500 years of Christianity. [/quote] Nevertheless, it is foreign to the Scriptures. We do not judge the Scriptures in light of the Fathers and Sacred Tradition, rather, we judge the Fathers and thus, which traditions are 'Sacred', from the Scriptures alone.

[quote]Since you say that our wills are naturally evil, then you would have to say man is naturally evil, as God gave us our Will. [/quote] Since the Fall, yes. We are dead in our sins and enemies of God, thus, evil.

[quote]Since you say that our wills are naturally evil, then you would have to say man is naturally evil, as God gave us our Will. So, God would give us something to seperate us from Him? If our Wills are against God, then God could create something that is intended to be set against Him, and so he cannot be the God of Good, since He can produce evil, then surely, he is the God of Evil as well.[/quote] First of all, from a purely philosophical level, your argument doesn't make sense:
If it (sin) wasn't created or in some way initiated by God, where did it come from? He must have made man with he capacity to do evil and fall, otherwise he couldn't have fallen. Philosophically speaking, your argument reduces itself to absurdity, because it requires that something come into existance outside of God's omnipotence.

Also, the Scriptures further refute you.

Proverbs 16:4

[color=blue]The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.[/color]

Clearly, then, God made the wicked [b]for the day of evil[/b] (i.e. Judgement Day). You cannot therefore argue 'free will' in light of this, since if God wills a man to be evil, he must of necessity be so.

Also, you might want to check out Romans 9:15-24, which speaks of God ordaining vessels of wrath and mercy.

[quote]God is perfectly good, and cannot make anything that isn't good, and a Will that isn't good because it is set against God would be such an evil. [/quote] Dealt with above. [quote] If a human's Will doesn't ever want to do good, then it is to say that an atheist can never do good, nor an older Hindu man, because he is unregenerate, and cannot receive the Spirit, and has only his Will. [/quote] That's right, in fact, his works are sins because they proceed not from faith. That's not to say, however, that they cannot have, what Luther called a 'civil righteousness' - that is, a worth here and in this world, but in the eternal sphere they are nothing but sins and filthy rags.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Mary's Knight, La' date='Sep 18 2004, 02:43 PM']

with original sin and concupiscence(sp?) we are quite unable to do good save that God helps us do it. This he does by providing the grace to overcome our inclination to sin.
[/quote]
Inclination to sin? You can't be serious! Haven't you ever read Ephesians 2:1-6, which speaks of us being DEAD in our sins? We're not sick in our sins, we're DEAD!

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Sep 12 2004, 12:29 PM'] First off...

*you're. Newb -_-.


Back on topic, however, the first line of your first post states that the only way to salvation. Your definition of grace states that all men (note the lack of women, due to the sexism of the Catholic church) and angels have this grace. Wouldn't that mean that I could sacrifice a goat to satan, but since I already have grace I'm fine? [/quote]
You're funny.

[ICTHUS]

Bumped for MichaelFilo to respond

[Archangel]

If God predestines someone for Hell, is there any reason for that person to do anything good in their life?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Oct 2 2004, 11:56 PM'] If God predestines someone for Hell, is there any reason for that person to do anything good in their life? [/quote]
That's just it. No one [i]knows[/i] with absolute certainty if they are among the Elect or not. I do not know, neither do you. St. Peter tells us to 'make certain our calling and election' so that we do not fall into that trap.

Your question proceeds under the assumption that it is possible to know if one is among the Elect before the end of one's life.

(I'm just taking a wild stab at your question. I really don't understand it to begin with)