LIFETEEN

[jasJis]

Hey you curmudgeons! Read the GIRM
[quote]17. [u]It is therefore of the greatest importance [/u]that the celebration of the Mass—that is, the Lord's Supper—be so arranged that the sacred ministers [u]and the faithful taking part in it[/u], [u]according to the proper state of each, may derive from it more abundantly26 those fruits for the sake of which Christ the Lord instituted the Eucharistic Sacrifice of his Body and Blood and entrusted it to the Church, his beloved Bride, as the memorial of his Passion and Resurrection.27

18. This will best be accomplished if, with due regard for the nature and the particular circumstances of each liturgical assembly,[b] the entire celebration is planned in such a way that it leads to a conscious, active, and full participation of the faithful both in body and in mind,[/b] a participation burning with faith, hope, and charity, of the sort which is desired by the Church and demanded by the very nature of the celebration, and to which the Christian people have a right and duty by reason of their Baptism.28[/u]
19. Even if it is sometimes not possible to have the presence and active participation of the faithful, which bring out more plainly the ecclesial nature of the celebration,29 the Eucharistic Celebration always retains its efficacy and dignity because it is the action of Christ and the Church, in which the priest fulfills his own principal office and always acts for the people's salvation.

It is therefore recommended that the priest celebrate the Eucharistic Sacrifice even daily, if possible.30

20. Because, however, the celebration of the Eucharist, like the entire Liturgy, is carried out through perceptible signs that nourish, strengthen, and express faith,31 [u][b]the utmost care must be taken to choose and to arrange those forms and elements[/b][/u] set forth by the Church that, in view of the circumstances of the people and the place, will [u][b]more effectively foster active and full participation and more properly respond to the spiritual needs of the faithful[/b][/u].[/quote]

Edited October 22, 2004 by jasJis

[toledo_jesus]

I enjoy being curmudgeonly.

[jasJis]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Oct 21 2004, 09:16 PM'] I enjoy being curmudgeonly. [/quote]
That's okay. Many people enjoy being in error.

[FiZzGiG]

JASJIS I COULD KISS YOU!!!


You have made my day.

[popestpiusx]

What's your point? Full and active participation doesn't mean what you think it does. See Ratzinger's "Spirit of the Liturgy" (or any of his other works on the liturgy) for a proper definition. Also, Pius XII's Mediator Dei.

[Scofizzle]

[quote]
Try explaining to a kid today that Church is not supposed to be like MTV, that religion is not a feel good -be happy thing. Many kids go to Lifeteen for the feeling and miss the theology. We can't get thru life on a feeling religion - when the feelings go religion goes as well.[/quote]

You are absolutely 100% correct. That is not what LIFE TEEN is presenting.
personally at my parish and most parishes. We do a great job at Cathechesis. (this section not meant to sound mean but for the most part it is true. unfortunately. This comes from my experience as a teen and as a youth minister.) For the most part when a teen enters highschool. they are both spiritually and physically immature. If you ask any freshman in highschool why they are not "into" mass, they will tell you b/c they dont feel like they get anything out of it. Unfortunately that is the reality of the world we live in. LIFE TEEN programs across the globe have offered teens a place where they can both feel and learn of God's presence and the Church God has built for us.



[quote]What's your point? Full and active participation doesn't mean what you think it does. See Ratzinger's "Spirit of the Liturgy" (or any of his other works on the liturgy) for a proper definition. Also, Pius XII's Mediator Dei.[/quote]

Full active participation seems to be pretty self explanatory to me.

[b]On Life after LIFE TEEN:[/b]
In most cases LIFE TEEN is a program that continues over a 7 year period. Meaning that any given teen who comes into the program in middle school will be there for 7 years. Many places only do it for high school. Which will give the teens 4 years of exposure. In the begining the teens are drawn in by friendships, fun actvities, a lively mass, and the other things that are only seen from the outside of a LIFE TEEN program. Through they're years of highschool they mature as people. They also mature spiritually. It becomes less and less about the coolness and more and more about the love of the Church. Untill the time they go through Confirmation and they are fully "initiated" (lame wording but you get the point) into the church we are cathechizing them and helping them to grow in their relationship with God. By the time they leave for college, they have outgrown the ministry and they are ready to go out and find their own place in the church. Many fall in love with LIFE TEEN and come back to volunteer. There is not a 100% rate where all of teens go out and keep goign to church. They are human beings too. All we can do is plant the seed.

[b]On LIFE TEEN parishes:[/b]
We call them LIFE TEEN parishes for a reason. It takes the whole parish to run a sucessfull program. Just like any other ministry. There has to be tons of volunteers and paretns have to trust in waht you are doing. And parents around the world have agreed that LIFE TEEN is doing good things.

[b]On the Holy See and LIFE TEEN:[/b]
LIFE TEEN has been recognized as a Lay Association and has the endorsement of the Holy See. Nuf Sed

[b]On the Liturgical abuses (i don't think that thats a word):[/b]
1) LIFE TEEN has never required the altar gather to be a part of a LIFE TEEN program. It was just something that was there at St. Tim's in AZ and other parishes started to mimic it.
2) From the begining of LIFE TEEN what goes in Mass is the decision of the pastor of each indivisual parish. If anything is occuring that should not be, it is the responsibility of the pastor to stop it. LIFE TEEN was obedient to their pastors wishes. There was no problem with altar gether untill recently. There was no presedence to say this isnt allowed. The issue was adressed here in America. The decision was made to leave it up to the local bishops. LIFE TEEN was obedient. In the areas where the bishops said it wasnt allowed they didnt do it. Now the rules has been laid out clearly. LIFE TEEN is obedient.

[b]On gearing Masses towards groups of people:[/b]
There is no problem with having a Mass that is geared towards teenagers. All that means is the music during mass is done in a more contemporary style and the homilies and donw in a way that teens can relate to better. Simply put the things that are allowed to be changed in Mass are being changed. This is no different than doing a children's mass or a spanish mass. Anyone can go, everyone is goin to get the same things out of the mass. The teens will learn to fall in love with Mass. and as they grow spiritually they will grow to fully appreciate the richness and fullness of our Church as we know it.

If you will live in the real world with me for a minute. Most parishes have several masses on the weekends. We have 6. 5 PM Sat, 7:00 AM Sun, 8 AM, 9:45 AM, 11:30 AM and 5:00 PM Sunday. We all choose which mass we go to based on our experience at those particular Masses. We choose one we LIKE b/c they are not all the same. We go to that Mass b/c some aspect of it (other than it being Mass) atracts us to that mass. Whether is be the music or lack of music or the time or whatever. We are choosing whatever Mass we go to based on our feelings for that particular Mass. Every Mass is geared differently. And everything is different at every parish.


[b]THE POINT IS:[/b]
LIFE TEEN is working. There are more teens involved in the Church today than there has ever been.(no source, Mark Hart told this to me at a LIFE TEEN training conference) But teens are growing to love the church, Christ, and their fellow man. LIFE TEEN is increasing interests in vocations. It is working.


[quote] And Cmom, I totally understand. Yes when I first saw LIFETEEN, I was sort of taken a back at how radical it was.[/quote]

This has been my favorite quote from this entire discussion we've been having. The LIFE TEEN aproach is considered very radical to some. And I'm glad for it. We are teaching our Teens to be radical in their faith. We want to be radical. We want to live a dangerous faith. We want to go against everything our society is teaching our teens is correct. and that is the definition of radical. radical doesnt mean bad. In their days, the Apostles were considered radical, what they did was crazy. And thats what LIFE TEEN is doing. We are bringing teen closer to Christ.

[LiL Kat Said]

well said scofizzle!

[toledo_jesus]

well I don't think it's a service to anybody to have a 'different' Mass. But people are gonna do what they're gonna do, and God will let us know who was right later. If this program is bringing people to Mass and at the same time accepting correction from the Church, then fine. I'm hoping that this attitude of innovation and experimentation with Mass will peter off soon. It's so 70s.
I suppose some illicit activities for the past few years aren't so serious in the scope of Church history. Still, I'd feel better if I knew that there would be no more tweaking the Mass. Hopefully no more from LIFETEEN.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Oct 22 2004, 04:49 AM']



This has been my favorite quote from this entire discussion we've been having. The LIFE TEEN aproach is considered very radical to some. And I'm glad for it. We are teaching our Teens to be radical in their faith. We want to be radical. We want to live a dangerous faith. We want to go against everything our society is teaching our teens is correct. and that is the definition of radical. radical doesnt mean bad. In their days, the Apostles were considered radical, what they did was crazy. And thats what LIFE TEEN is doing. We are bringing teen closer to Christ. [/quote]
If you want to teach someone to be radical teach them about St Francis, who was a radical AND obedient at the same time.
Wow what a concept.

[Scofizzle]

yes Cmom...St. Francis was awesome. All of the saints lived radical lives.

I also want to clear up the fact, that yes LIFE TEEN did make a mistake in doing the Mass differently. Their mistake has been made clear at this point and they have corrected that mistake. Other than these abuses, nothing was or is wrong with a well run LIFE TEEN program. If you could not tell I am very passionate about LIFE TEEN b/c it did change my life and I see changing the lives of teenagers everyday.


OH and in case you were curious I always capitalize LIFE TEEN the way I do is b/c it is a registered trademark. And I guess I just think thats cool.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Oct 22 2004, 03:49 AM']

Full active participation seems to be pretty self explanatory to me.

[/quote]
There's the problem. It only seems obvious or self explanatory because you are reading it as though it were written in English, when in fact it is a "term of art" so to speak. Keep in mind that it translated from the latin. The latin term that would fit your interpretation is [i]activus[/i]. If the council and other liturgical documents were using this term, you would be correct. But they are not. They are using the much more difficult to translate [i]actuosus[/i]. This term basically implys an inner disposition, that while certainly manifested in some external way, is primarily internal. The stress on "active participation" really started with with Pope St. Pius X's [i]moto proprio[/i] "[i]Tra le sollecitudini[/i]". It is in light of that document that the words are interpreted from then on. Then the phrase was used in [i]Mediator Dei[/i] by Pius XII. I can gurantee that neither of these men, nor the key players in the liturgical movement (Jungmann, Parsch, Guardini, etc) would interpret those words as you are doing.


From Cardinal Ratzinger:
There is something else: the Council reminded us most explicitly that the liturgy is, in the Church’s language, actio, and action. Therefore it implies the participatio actuosa, the active participation of all the faithful. But here again the impression has been given, to a greater or lesser extent, that, if the liturgy is to be the work of the community, it must also be created by it; and, putting it crudely, this led to its being measured by its entertainment value. The idea was to make it as exciting as possible, shaking up the standoffish, the fringe members, and drawing them into community; but, strangely, what happened was that, as a result of all this, the liturgy actually lost its authentic inner vibrancy. For this does not arise from what we do but from the fact that something is being done here which all our concerted efforts cannot achieve. What has created the liturgy’s special position, down the centuries, is the fact that in it a supreme authority is operative, an authority which no one can arrogate to himself. It the liturgy the absolutely Other takes place, the absolutely Other comes among us. . . .

Therefore the Eucharist does not stand or fall by its effect on our feelings. Feelings come to an end, and ultimately all entertainment becomes tedious, -- as we know only too well nowadays. What we need is the presence in our lives of what is real and permanent so that we can approach it. No external participation and creativity is of any use unless it is a participation in this inner reality, in the way of the Lord, in God Himself. Its aim is to lead us to this breakthrough to God. This involves two further practical considerations: liturgy is not a matter of variety and change; it is concerned with an ever-deeper experience of something that is beyond change because it is the very answer that we are seeking. . . .

We ought to get back the dimension of the sacred in the liturgy.
The liturgy is not a festivity; it is not a meeting for the purpose of
having a good time. It is of no importance that the parish priest has
cudgeled his brains to come up with suggestive ideas or imaginative
novelties. The liturgy is what makes the Thrice-Holy God present
amongst us; it is the burning bush; it is the Alliance of God with man
in Jesus Christ, who has died and risen again. The grandeur of the liturgy
does not rest upon the fact that it offers an interesting entertainment,
but in rendering tangible the Totally Other, whom we are not capable of
summoning. He comes because He wills. In other words, the essential in
the liturgy is the mystery, which is realized in the common ritual of the
Church; all the rest diminishes it. Men experiment with it in lively fashion,
and find themselves deceived, when the mystery is transformed into
distraction, when the chief actor in the liturgy is not the Living God but
the priest or the liturgical director.


There is much more where this came from, but that will have to do for now.

[FiZzGiG]

Scofizzle.... you are my HERO!!!!!!!!


I love you, I love Mass, I love LIFETEEN (tm) I love Jesus, I love St. Francis, I love Kathleen, I love phatmass, and I'm just so happy I could dance.


YAY!!!!!!!

[Scofizzle]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 22 2004, 11:10 AM'] There's the problem. It only seems obvious or self explanatory because you are reading it as though it were written in English, when in fact it is a "term of art" so to speak. [/quote]
i am not referenceing this quote in particular just a really long post to try and quote.


You are aboslutely correct. I understand what the term full and active participation means. Mainly b/c i have studied up on it. But essetially it is a simple phrase to grasp. The reason the LIFE TEEN mass has been so successful is not because the music has changed or because the homilies are different. Its because the communities are there together. Its not just for teens. You find MORE entire families at a LIFE TEEN mass compared to any other Mass. The reason why the music is changed and the homlies are differnt is so that the community will get the most from mass. True Authentic Worship is the goal of any mass. We use more contemporary music is becuase many teens are more comfortable worshiping that way. The is no reason for every mass to be a carbon copy of the previous one. As superficial as it sounds, many people are not ready for that. What we have to do is help people in our community to become stronger in theri faith.

Now I don't know what your field of experience is with LIFE TEEN, but yes some of the Masses are way overdone. And it can be a distraction when it is overdone like that. But please don't scrap the whole program b/c of a few that are not focused on the truth. I would say that if you want to see a REAL LIFE TEEN Mass. You should come to my parish if you are ever in Sugarland. You will then see why LIFE TEEN is doing great things. I love this qutoe from your post:

[quote]  Men experiment with it in lively fashion,
and find themselves deceived, when the mystery is transformed into
distraction, when the chief actor in the liturgy is not the Living God but
the priest or the liturgical director[/quote]

This is correct not only in LIFE TEEN Masses but in any mass. The key is to have the focus on God. The focus is on the Eucharist. Always. How many times have we been to an Easter Vigil Mass where it seems like focus is on something else. This doesn;t apply only to LIFE TEEN. And it has become a problem in the Church today.

I guess the key point I want to express to you is. LIFE TEEN is not about entertainment in Mass. LIFE TEEN is about leading teens closer to Christ. We do this by presenting them opportunities to Worship in the way they feel most comfortable, and by loving them unconditionally, and for teens that is a big deal.

Sorry but some of the things in post may be hard to grasp if you are not a teen or do not work with teens frequently.

[toledo_jesus]

Cardinal Ratzinger said it way better than I did...

[musturde]

Hey guys, I can't really state a complete view on this subject, although I attend lifeteen myself and the whole program really helps spiritually. Everything so far is cool with me, the music may be a little too noisy but some or most spanish masses have guitars and loud music, i guess thats not much of a problem. If there is any other HUGE problem, the Vatican would have stated it. They even made lifeteen stop saying, "The Mass Never Ends...". I mean, I'm not trying to say it's not an issue, but if they were to only change gathering around the alter and such a small detail as what we say at the end of mass, then I doubt they'd have much of a problem with the rest of it. It's mainly the Bishops who decide. Many or most of the bishops in America supported or allow lifeteen, at least to a point of not enforcing changes themselves. If the bishop allowed it, it wasn't Lifteen's fault. Now, they are trying to get full recognition from Rome. They may not be willing to change anything because if the Vatican agrees with it all, why should they change it? We should wait on the Vatican's final stance. Lifeteen has done wonders, if the Vatican still has a problem, it will be settled.

[livingHimloud]

you can't tell me that something that gets teens started in their faith is a bad thing. now we are not called to stop with lifeteen, and only get that far in our faith, we are called to continue to learn and grow in our faith, but it is a great place to start. it got me started, it's gotten thousands of teens started. and some of them are considering joining the religious life, why? because they got a strong start on their faith, and they have a community of close friends to help them grow and offer encouragement. there were things that weren't litergical, but they were fixed. do not judge. be thankful that it's touching so many lives.

[popestpiusx]

God can bring good out of anything he wants. He does this quite often. In fact, The Church exists because the greatest good (the redemption of man) was brought out of the greatest evil (deicide). If he can bring about conversions from a manifestly false "apparition" (Medjugorje) then he can do the same from something like "Lifeteen", without confirming either as true or good in themselves.

[musturde]

PPS, i hate that arguement, for one reason: IT'S USED FOR ANTICATHOLICSIM! lol...

No but seriously, the Church hasnt said anything so we cant judge it... yet. The bishops support it so far, that's all that really counts untill the Vatican says anything against it.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='BLAZEr' date='Oct 19 2004, 10:59 AM'] As it stands, I'm a Youth Minister who doesn't do LifeTeen, but respects it. I am, however, not inclined to excuse its weaknesses. Just like I'm not inclined to excuse my own. [/quote]
ditto

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 21 2004, 08:33 AM'] WE are not bashing it - we are simply worried about the consequences. I have kids leaving my church all the time for the cult down the road that offer flashing lights, catchy christian music, and "once saved your saved" and do what you want philosphy. They pay a youth minister 30,000 a year, hav a gym open every night etc - the kids are constantly after our churchs kids and look on them as trophys.

Try explaining to a kid today that Church is not supposed to be like MTV, that religion is not a feel good -be happy thing. Many kids go to Lifeteen for the feeling and miss the theology. We can't get thru life on a feeling religion - when the feelings go religion goes as well. [/quote]