LIFETEEN

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='FiZzGiG' date='Oct 21 2004, 01:40 PM'] People have used their original practices to understand Churches teachings for YEARS! Go read the Anglo-Saxon poem of The Dream of the Rood--the poet uses his old Anlgo-Saxon beliefs to better undestand Christianity.
[/quote]
Not at Mass they didn't.

[quote]If it's so wrong, why does the Church still allow it?[/quote]

Now that is a good question. Why does the Church allow many things that are not right? Why is Mahoney still Archbishop of L.A.? Why is Cardinal Law Archpreist of St. Mary Major in Rome? I could go on and on.

[quote]LIFETEEN takes what we as teens know, and they put it with Church teachins so we understand.[/quote]

If I was a teen I would be offended by that. It's rather denigrating to teens to say that the only way they will relate to the Church is to turn Mass into a rock concert. Lower the standard, that's the way to go.

[FiZzGiG]

Goodness, gracious. Mass is not being turned into a rock concert. If they wanted a Christian rock concert they could just go to the David Crowder Band concert coming up or any other rock concert. But no. They go to Mass every Sunday, because it's MASS--even if the music is more "rock-ish".

And what's this?: "Lower the standard, that's the way to go."
Are you saying that the LIFETEEN Mass is a lower standard? Because I don't know what you think, but it's still Mass. The Mass is the same, regardless of music or homily-focus. Since it is indeed still Mass, you cannot say that its standards are lower. Mass IS the standard.

And why does the Church allow many things that aren't right? The Church is forgiving. They give second chances. They asked Martin Luther to recant first--they didn't go off excommunicating him right off the bat. He didn't recant so it resulted in the excommunication. LIFETEEN changed its ways, and so it's still around.

I don't understand how so many of you can be so against LIFETEEN, but then again, maybe you haven't seen the radical changes it has caused in people, like I have.

Friends that should be partying (according to standards people our age) are seriously considering becoming nuns or priests. Why? Because LIFETEEN helped them really appreciate Catholicism and understand that it is the true religion. I was with them. I saw the change. They're hard-core Catholics, and it's awesome!

And LIFETEEN led me to discover phatmass. I mean, come on. It can't be all that bad, then!

[toledo_jesus]

Mass should be constant and not geared towards an age demographic.

[FiZzGiG]

Tell that to all the parishes who have children's Masses on holidays like Easter and Christmas.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='FiZzGiG' date='Oct 21 2004, 10:05 PM'] Tell that to all the parishes who have children's Masses on holidays like Easter and Christmas. [/quote]
I have.

[jasJis]

Hey you curmudgeons! Read the GIRM
[quote]17. [u]It is therefore of the greatest importance [/u]that the celebration of the Mass—that is, the Lord's Supper—be so arranged that the sacred ministers [u]and the faithful taking part in it[/u], [u]according to the proper state of each, may derive from it more abundantly26 those fruits for the sake of which Christ the Lord instituted the Eucharistic Sacrifice of his Body and Blood and entrusted it to the Church, his beloved Bride, as the memorial of his Passion and Resurrection.27

18. This will best be accomplished if, with due regard for the nature and the particular circumstances of each liturgical assembly,[b] the entire celebration is planned in such a way that it leads to a conscious, active, and full participation of the faithful both in body and in mind,[/b] a participation burning with faith, hope, and charity, of the sort which is desired by the Church and demanded by the very nature of the celebration, and to which the Christian people have a right and duty by reason of their Baptism.28[/u]
19. Even if it is sometimes not possible to have the presence and active participation of the faithful, which bring out more plainly the ecclesial nature of the celebration,29 the Eucharistic Celebration always retains its efficacy and dignity because it is the action of Christ and the Church, in which the priest fulfills his own principal office and always acts for the people's salvation.

It is therefore recommended that the priest celebrate the Eucharistic Sacrifice even daily, if possible.30

20. Because, however, the celebration of the Eucharist, like the entire Liturgy, is carried out through perceptible signs that nourish, strengthen, and express faith,31 [u][b]the utmost care must be taken to choose and to arrange those forms and elements[/b][/u] set forth by the Church that, in view of the circumstances of the people and the place, will [u][b]more effectively foster active and full participation and more properly respond to the spiritual needs of the faithful[/b][/u].[/quote]

Edited October 22, 2004 by jasJis

[toledo_jesus]

I enjoy being curmudgeonly.

[jasJis]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Oct 21 2004, 09:16 PM'] I enjoy being curmudgeonly. [/quote]
That's okay. Many people enjoy being in error.

[FiZzGiG]

JASJIS I COULD KISS YOU!!!


You have made my day.

[popestpiusx]

What's your point? Full and active participation doesn't mean what you think it does. See Ratzinger's "Spirit of the Liturgy" (or any of his other works on the liturgy) for a proper definition. Also, Pius XII's Mediator Dei.

[Scofizzle]

[quote]
Try explaining to a kid today that Church is not supposed to be like MTV, that religion is not a feel good -be happy thing. Many kids go to Lifeteen for the feeling and miss the theology. We can't get thru life on a feeling religion - when the feelings go religion goes as well.[/quote]

You are absolutely 100% correct. That is not what LIFE TEEN is presenting.
personally at my parish and most parishes. We do a great job at Cathechesis. (this section not meant to sound mean but for the most part it is true. unfortunately. This comes from my experience as a teen and as a youth minister.) For the most part when a teen enters highschool. they are both spiritually and physically immature. If you ask any freshman in highschool why they are not "into" mass, they will tell you b/c they dont feel like they get anything out of it. Unfortunately that is the reality of the world we live in. LIFE TEEN programs across the globe have offered teens a place where they can both feel and learn of God's presence and the Church God has built for us.



[quote]What's your point? Full and active participation doesn't mean what you think it does. See Ratzinger's "Spirit of the Liturgy" (or any of his other works on the liturgy) for a proper definition. Also, Pius XII's Mediator Dei.[/quote]

Full active participation seems to be pretty self explanatory to me.

[b]On Life after LIFE TEEN:[/b]
In most cases LIFE TEEN is a program that continues over a 7 year period. Meaning that any given teen who comes into the program in middle school will be there for 7 years. Many places only do it for high school. Which will give the teens 4 years of exposure. In the begining the teens are drawn in by friendships, fun actvities, a lively mass, and the other things that are only seen from the outside of a LIFE TEEN program. Through they're years of highschool they mature as people. They also mature spiritually. It becomes less and less about the coolness and more and more about the love of the Church. Untill the time they go through Confirmation and they are fully "initiated" (lame wording but you get the point) into the church we are cathechizing them and helping them to grow in their relationship with God. By the time they leave for college, they have outgrown the ministry and they are ready to go out and find their own place in the church. Many fall in love with LIFE TEEN and come back to volunteer. There is not a 100% rate where all of teens go out and keep goign to church. They are human beings too. All we can do is plant the seed.

[b]On LIFE TEEN parishes:[/b]
We call them LIFE TEEN parishes for a reason. It takes the whole parish to run a sucessfull program. Just like any other ministry. There has to be tons of volunteers and paretns have to trust in waht you are doing. And parents around the world have agreed that LIFE TEEN is doing good things.

[b]On the Holy See and LIFE TEEN:[/b]
LIFE TEEN has been recognized as a Lay Association and has the endorsement of the Holy See. Nuf Sed

[b]On the Liturgical abuses (i don't think that thats a word):[/b]
1) LIFE TEEN has never required the altar gather to be a part of a LIFE TEEN program. It was just something that was there at St. Tim's in AZ and other parishes started to mimic it.
2) From the begining of LIFE TEEN what goes in Mass is the decision of the pastor of each indivisual parish. If anything is occuring that should not be, it is the responsibility of the pastor to stop it. LIFE TEEN was obedient to their pastors wishes. There was no problem with altar gether untill recently. There was no presedence to say this isnt allowed. The issue was adressed here in America. The decision was made to leave it up to the local bishops. LIFE TEEN was obedient. In the areas where the bishops said it wasnt allowed they didnt do it. Now the rules has been laid out clearly. LIFE TEEN is obedient.

[b]On gearing Masses towards groups of people:[/b]
There is no problem with having a Mass that is geared towards teenagers. All that means is the music during mass is done in a more contemporary style and the homilies and donw in a way that teens can relate to better. Simply put the things that are allowed to be changed in Mass are being changed. This is no different than doing a children's mass or a spanish mass. Anyone can go, everyone is goin to get the same things out of the mass. The teens will learn to fall in love with Mass. and as they grow spiritually they will grow to fully appreciate the richness and fullness of our Church as we know it.

If you will live in the real world with me for a minute. Most parishes have several masses on the weekends. We have 6. 5 PM Sat, 7:00 AM Sun, 8 AM, 9:45 AM, 11:30 AM and 5:00 PM Sunday. We all choose which mass we go to based on our experience at those particular Masses. We choose one we LIKE b/c they are not all the same. We go to that Mass b/c some aspect of it (other than it being Mass) atracts us to that mass. Whether is be the music or lack of music or the time or whatever. We are choosing whatever Mass we go to based on our feelings for that particular Mass. Every Mass is geared differently. And everything is different at every parish.


[b]THE POINT IS:[/b]
LIFE TEEN is working. There are more teens involved in the Church today than there has ever been.(no source, Mark Hart told this to me at a LIFE TEEN training conference) But teens are growing to love the church, Christ, and their fellow man. LIFE TEEN is increasing interests in vocations. It is working.


[quote] And Cmom, I totally understand. Yes when I first saw LIFETEEN, I was sort of taken a back at how radical it was.[/quote]

This has been my favorite quote from this entire discussion we've been having. The LIFE TEEN aproach is considered very radical to some. And I'm glad for it. We are teaching our Teens to be radical in their faith. We want to be radical. We want to live a dangerous faith. We want to go against everything our society is teaching our teens is correct. and that is the definition of radical. radical doesnt mean bad. In their days, the Apostles were considered radical, what they did was crazy. And thats what LIFE TEEN is doing. We are bringing teen closer to Christ.

[LiL Kat Said]

well said scofizzle!

[toledo_jesus]

well I don't think it's a service to anybody to have a 'different' Mass. But people are gonna do what they're gonna do, and God will let us know who was right later. If this program is bringing people to Mass and at the same time accepting correction from the Church, then fine. I'm hoping that this attitude of innovation and experimentation with Mass will peter off soon. It's so 70s.
I suppose some illicit activities for the past few years aren't so serious in the scope of Church history. Still, I'd feel better if I knew that there would be no more tweaking the Mass. Hopefully no more from LIFETEEN.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Oct 22 2004, 04:49 AM']



This has been my favorite quote from this entire discussion we've been having. The LIFE TEEN aproach is considered very radical to some. And I'm glad for it. We are teaching our Teens to be radical in their faith. We want to be radical. We want to live a dangerous faith. We want to go against everything our society is teaching our teens is correct. and that is the definition of radical. radical doesnt mean bad. In their days, the Apostles were considered radical, what they did was crazy. And thats what LIFE TEEN is doing. We are bringing teen closer to Christ. [/quote]
If you want to teach someone to be radical teach them about St Francis, who was a radical AND obedient at the same time.
Wow what a concept.

[Scofizzle]

yes Cmom...St. Francis was awesome. All of the saints lived radical lives.

I also want to clear up the fact, that yes LIFE TEEN did make a mistake in doing the Mass differently. Their mistake has been made clear at this point and they have corrected that mistake. Other than these abuses, nothing was or is wrong with a well run LIFE TEEN program. If you could not tell I am very passionate about LIFE TEEN b/c it did change my life and I see changing the lives of teenagers everyday.


OH and in case you were curious I always capitalize LIFE TEEN the way I do is b/c it is a registered trademark. And I guess I just think thats cool.