LIFETEEN

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Oct 22 2004, 03:49 AM']

Full active participation seems to be pretty self explanatory to me.

[/quote]
There's the problem. It only seems obvious or self explanatory because you are reading it as though it were written in English, when in fact it is a "term of art" so to speak. Keep in mind that it translated from the latin. The latin term that would fit your interpretation is [i]activus[/i]. If the council and other liturgical documents were using this term, you would be correct. But they are not. They are using the much more difficult to translate [i]actuosus[/i]. This term basically implys an inner disposition, that while certainly manifested in some external way, is primarily internal. The stress on "active participation" really started with with Pope St. Pius X's [i]moto proprio[/i] "[i]Tra le sollecitudini[/i]". It is in light of that document that the words are interpreted from then on. Then the phrase was used in [i]Mediator Dei[/i] by Pius XII. I can gurantee that neither of these men, nor the key players in the liturgical movement (Jungmann, Parsch, Guardini, etc) would interpret those words as you are doing.


From Cardinal Ratzinger:
There is something else: the Council reminded us most explicitly that the liturgy is, in the Church’s language, actio, and action. Therefore it implies the participatio actuosa, the active participation of all the faithful. But here again the impression has been given, to a greater or lesser extent, that, if the liturgy is to be the work of the community, it must also be created by it; and, putting it crudely, this led to its being measured by its entertainment value. The idea was to make it as exciting as possible, shaking up the standoffish, the fringe members, and drawing them into community; but, strangely, what happened was that, as a result of all this, the liturgy actually lost its authentic inner vibrancy. For this does not arise from what we do but from the fact that something is being done here which all our concerted efforts cannot achieve. What has created the liturgy’s special position, down the centuries, is the fact that in it a supreme authority is operative, an authority which no one can arrogate to himself. It the liturgy the absolutely Other takes place, the absolutely Other comes among us. . . .

Therefore the Eucharist does not stand or fall by its effect on our feelings. Feelings come to an end, and ultimately all entertainment becomes tedious, -- as we know only too well nowadays. What we need is the presence in our lives of what is real and permanent so that we can approach it. No external participation and creativity is of any use unless it is a participation in this inner reality, in the way of the Lord, in God Himself. Its aim is to lead us to this breakthrough to God. This involves two further practical considerations: liturgy is not a matter of variety and change; it is concerned with an ever-deeper experience of something that is beyond change because it is the very answer that we are seeking. . . .

We ought to get back the dimension of the sacred in the liturgy.
The liturgy is not a festivity; it is not a meeting for the purpose of
having a good time. It is of no importance that the parish priest has
cudgeled his brains to come up with suggestive ideas or imaginative
novelties. The liturgy is what makes the Thrice-Holy God present
amongst us; it is the burning bush; it is the Alliance of God with man
in Jesus Christ, who has died and risen again. The grandeur of the liturgy
does not rest upon the fact that it offers an interesting entertainment,
but in rendering tangible the Totally Other, whom we are not capable of
summoning. He comes because He wills. In other words, the essential in
the liturgy is the mystery, which is realized in the common ritual of the
Church; all the rest diminishes it. Men experiment with it in lively fashion,
and find themselves deceived, when the mystery is transformed into
distraction, when the chief actor in the liturgy is not the Living God but
the priest or the liturgical director.


There is much more where this came from, but that will have to do for now.

[FiZzGiG]

Scofizzle.... you are my HERO!!!!!!!!


I love you, I love Mass, I love LIFETEEN (tm) I love Jesus, I love St. Francis, I love Kathleen, I love phatmass, and I'm just so happy I could dance.


YAY!!!!!!!

[Scofizzle]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 22 2004, 11:10 AM'] There's the problem. It only seems obvious or self explanatory because you are reading it as though it were written in English, when in fact it is a "term of art" so to speak. [/quote]
i am not referenceing this quote in particular just a really long post to try and quote.


You are aboslutely correct. I understand what the term full and active participation means. Mainly b/c i have studied up on it. But essetially it is a simple phrase to grasp. The reason the LIFE TEEN mass has been so successful is not because the music has changed or because the homilies are different. Its because the communities are there together. Its not just for teens. You find MORE entire families at a LIFE TEEN mass compared to any other Mass. The reason why the music is changed and the homlies are differnt is so that the community will get the most from mass. True Authentic Worship is the goal of any mass. We use more contemporary music is becuase many teens are more comfortable worshiping that way. The is no reason for every mass to be a carbon copy of the previous one. As superficial as it sounds, many people are not ready for that. What we have to do is help people in our community to become stronger in theri faith.

Now I don't know what your field of experience is with LIFE TEEN, but yes some of the Masses are way overdone. And it can be a distraction when it is overdone like that. But please don't scrap the whole program b/c of a few that are not focused on the truth. I would say that if you want to see a REAL LIFE TEEN Mass. You should come to my parish if you are ever in Sugarland. You will then see why LIFE TEEN is doing great things. I love this qutoe from your post:

[quote]  Men experiment with it in lively fashion,
and find themselves deceived, when the mystery is transformed into
distraction, when the chief actor in the liturgy is not the Living God but
the priest or the liturgical director[/quote]

This is correct not only in LIFE TEEN Masses but in any mass. The key is to have the focus on God. The focus is on the Eucharist. Always. How many times have we been to an Easter Vigil Mass where it seems like focus is on something else. This doesn;t apply only to LIFE TEEN. And it has become a problem in the Church today.

I guess the key point I want to express to you is. LIFE TEEN is not about entertainment in Mass. LIFE TEEN is about leading teens closer to Christ. We do this by presenting them opportunities to Worship in the way they feel most comfortable, and by loving them unconditionally, and for teens that is a big deal.

Sorry but some of the things in post may be hard to grasp if you are not a teen or do not work with teens frequently.

[toledo_jesus]

Cardinal Ratzinger said it way better than I did...

[musturde]

Hey guys, I can't really state a complete view on this subject, although I attend lifeteen myself and the whole program really helps spiritually. Everything so far is cool with me, the music may be a little too noisy but some or most spanish masses have guitars and loud music, i guess thats not much of a problem. If there is any other HUGE problem, the Vatican would have stated it. They even made lifeteen stop saying, "The Mass Never Ends...". I mean, I'm not trying to say it's not an issue, but if they were to only change gathering around the alter and such a small detail as what we say at the end of mass, then I doubt they'd have much of a problem with the rest of it. It's mainly the Bishops who decide. Many or most of the bishops in America supported or allow lifeteen, at least to a point of not enforcing changes themselves. If the bishop allowed it, it wasn't Lifteen's fault. Now, they are trying to get full recognition from Rome. They may not be willing to change anything because if the Vatican agrees with it all, why should they change it? We should wait on the Vatican's final stance. Lifeteen has done wonders, if the Vatican still has a problem, it will be settled.

[livingHimloud]

you can't tell me that something that gets teens started in their faith is a bad thing. now we are not called to stop with lifeteen, and only get that far in our faith, we are called to continue to learn and grow in our faith, but it is a great place to start. it got me started, it's gotten thousands of teens started. and some of them are considering joining the religious life, why? because they got a strong start on their faith, and they have a community of close friends to help them grow and offer encouragement. there were things that weren't litergical, but they were fixed. do not judge. be thankful that it's touching so many lives.

[popestpiusx]

God can bring good out of anything he wants. He does this quite often. In fact, The Church exists because the greatest good (the redemption of man) was brought out of the greatest evil (deicide). If he can bring about conversions from a manifestly false "apparition" (Medjugorje) then he can do the same from something like "Lifeteen", without confirming either as true or good in themselves.

[musturde]

PPS, i hate that arguement, for one reason: IT'S USED FOR ANTICATHOLICSIM! lol...

No but seriously, the Church hasnt said anything so we cant judge it... yet. The bishops support it so far, that's all that really counts untill the Vatican says anything against it.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='BLAZEr' date='Oct 19 2004, 10:59 AM'] As it stands, I'm a Youth Minister who doesn't do LifeTeen, but respects it. I am, however, not inclined to excuse its weaknesses. Just like I'm not inclined to excuse my own. [/quote]
ditto

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 21 2004, 08:33 AM'] WE are not bashing it - we are simply worried about the consequences. I have kids leaving my church all the time for the cult down the road that offer flashing lights, catchy christian music, and "once saved your saved" and do what you want philosphy. They pay a youth minister 30,000 a year, hav a gym open every night etc - the kids are constantly after our churchs kids and look on them as trophys.

Try explaining to a kid today that Church is not supposed to be like MTV, that religion is not a feel good -be happy thing. Many kids go to Lifeteen for the feeling and miss the theology. We can't get thru life on a feeling religion - when the feelings go religion goes as well. [/quote]

[musturde]

Cmom, it's better than the kids seeking an "interactive" Church and instead joining a prot Church but I see what you mean. The problem is that if the kids even consider going through lifenight, they'll get a big chunk of Catholic Theology without even noticing it sometimes.

[Guest rate128]

I think everyone who is against LifeTeen and so-called "abuses" that go on need to keep in mind that, yes, the Vatican did ask LifeTeen to make a few changes. But the Vatican also said that it was a good program and has had a significant increase in the number of vocations, espically that of priesthood.

If a Vatican endorsement isn't not enough for you, I don't know what is.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote]I think everyone who is against LifeTeen and so-called "abuses" that go on need to keep in mind that, yes, the Vatican did ask LifeTeen to make a few changes. But the Vatican also said that it was a good program and has had a significant increase in the number of vocations, espically that of priesthood.

If a Vatican endorsement isn't not enough for you, I don't know what is. [/quote]

hi!

the abuses were not "so-called abuses" they were real abuses that needed to be stopped and went directly against the GIRM, ones that any catholic should have known them as, as well.

but what i wanted to ask is can you please provide a link where the Vatican is actually endorsing LT?

permitting is one thing, endorsing is another.

last time i checked the program has been created and spread only in the US--by the US--and not from Rome.

thanks!

[Scofizzle]

i dotn believe that Vatican has made an official endorsement YET. But good things have been said about LIFE TEEN from some high ranking officials.

Also LIFE TEEN is not just in the US. It's World Wide.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Oct 24 2004, 02:36 AM'] i dotn believe that Vatican has made an official endorsement YET.
[/quote]

thanks scofizzle thats what i was thinking for i knew of none.