Voting For Kerry

[flip]

If a Catholic votes for Kerry in the upcoming election, will that person be committing a mortal sin and therfore must go to confession?

Also, is it still a mortal sin to vote for Bush, since he is a pro life candidate, however, he is not pro-life in ALL cases, such as in cases of rape, incest, or threat to the mother's life?

This is an interesting debate that I got into... what do the Masses think?

[qfnol31]

Not necessarily. If a person has a false conscience (one that says it's best to vote for Kerry) and this is invincible ignorance (or maybe a little vincible ignorance) that they don't know, then no.

In simpler terms, if they don't know better, then it can't be a mortal sin.

[Big Joe]

But we are also responsible for properly forming our consciences.

If we are willfully ingnorant of the wrongness of such an act, it will increase our culpability.

[Hananiah]

Voting for Kerry would be a mortal sin, because there are no proportionate reasons to vote for him. In order for there to be a proportionate reason to vote for him, his opponent would have to be a genocidal maniac on the scale of Stalin, Hitler, or Pol Pot. However low our opinion may be of Bush, he is no Stalin, Hitler, or Pol Pot.

[XIX]

[quote name='Hananiah' date='Oct 1 2004, 02:50 PM'] Voting for Kerry would be a mortal sin, because there are no proportionate reasons to vote for him. In order for there to be a proportionate reason to vote for him, his opponent would have to be a genocidal maniac on the scale of Stalin, Hitler, or Pol Pot. However low our opinion may be of Bush, he is no Stalin, Hitler, or Pol Pot. [/quote]
You know fully well that what you are calling a "mortal sin" is actually a grave matter.

Please, we need to distinguish between those two!

[toledo_jesus]

voting for Kerry would be taciturn support of abortion. better not to vote at all, if you can not vote for Bush. Bush is the only electable candidate whose record indicates a pro-life stance. His support for the partial birth abortion ban is stellar. While he is not perfect as he does support it in cases of rape or incest, he is better than Kerry when it comes to this.
There are those who say we can't make this election about one issue. But they are wrong. The impact of the war, the economy, these things are [b]debatable[/b]. Abortion is not debatable. We have a clear moral prerogative against abortion. The war in Iraq may be a bad thing, it may not. It has only cost 1050-odd American lives. How many Americans are sacrificed on the altar of abortion each year? And do we support a candidate who though Catholic is too afraid to let his faith influence his politics, and better change the world?

If Kerry came out and outlined a social agenda that was in line with Catholic teachings, then the war would be a very decisive issue for me. However...Kerry is against his Church and he is against her teachings. I don't want him to be president.

Edited October 2, 2004 by toledo_jesus

[Guest Aluigi]

a sin of grave matter objectively speaking is a mortal sin.

[JP2Iloveyou]

Aluigi, that's not necessarily true. For a sin to be mortal, three things must be present simultaneoulsy. It must be grave matter, the person must know what he or she is doing is wrong, and he or she must fully will to do it. If any of these three are lacking, the sin is not mortal.

[Guest Aluigi]

objectively speaking.

you're speaking subjectively to specific cases. but when talking about sins you say this or that is a mortal sin if it has the potential to be a mortal sin.

[XIX]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Oct 2 2004, 04:57 PM'] objectively speaking.

you're speaking subjectively to specific cases. but when talking about sins you say this or that is a mortal sin if it has the potential to be a mortal sin. [/quote]
Very true.

I don't know. I just get a little nervous when people don't clarify that. But yeah, I'd say that it is a mortal sin to vote for Kerry if you really know what you are doing.

[Guest TraditionalCatholic]

Kerry is known for his heresy on issues of the Church. Bush is a known Mason.

Honestly, sin is sin and we're doomed either way. It's like diet coke or diet pepsi. Let's get George's brother to run instead. Jeb a known Catholic convert. He was fighting for Terri Schiavo when none of our leaders dared to say a word.

[Guest Aluigi]

is Bush a Mason? provide evidence for this please, i was unaware.

[Guest TraditionalCatholic]

[url="http://www.infowars.com/print/Secret_societies/kerry_bush_sb.htm"]http://www.infowars.com/print/Secret_socie...rry_bush_sb.htm[/url]

Yes, Alex Jones on that site can be extreme at times. But the fact is true in this nature.

[Guest Aluigi]

it appears no one really knows anything about this skull and bones thing.. it's not necessarily mason... though it might seem a bit shady

[Hananiah]

I've read that one of their initiation rituals involves a statue of Don Quixote and the Pope.

[Hananiah]

My mistake, it's a guy dressed like the Pope:

“There is a devil, a Don Quixote and a Pope who has one foot sheathed in a white monogrammed slipper resting on a stone skull. The initiates are led into the room one at a time. And once an initiate is inside, the Bonesmen shriek at him. Finally, the Bonesman is shoved to his knees in front of Don Quixote as the shrieking crowd falls silent. And Don Quixote lifts his sword and taps the Bonesman on his left shoulder and says, ‘By order of our order, I dub thee knight of Euloga.’

[Christ's Knight]

So... now, Everyone who reads this post knows that Kerry Is for the MURDER of innocent babies. Despite all his flip flops on all the issues, he voted to make MURDER a legal practice. You (who read this) would now be guilty of a mortal sin if you cast a vote for Kerry! Its wrong, you now know its wrong & proceed to do it... 1, 2, 3 = Mortal Sin.

BUT lets clarify, confession is for confessing the sins we ARE sorry for committing. Not an excuse or a license to sin.

True dat to Bigjoe & ToledoJesus!

Traditional_Catholic be very careful of your accusations. Masonry is a pretty big allegation. Slander is also a sin.

[flip]

Good point knight. abortion is murder in ALL cases.

By your definition, is not Bush for murder (in certain cases), since he is for Abortion (in certain cases)?

I think that us as Catholics need to set the bar and NOT waver, and never say, "Well, it's ok to murder here but not murder there", which we are saying when we vote for bush or kerry...

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='flip' date='Oct 4 2004, 12:44 PM'] Good point knight. abortion is murder in ALL cases.

By your definition, is not Bush for murder (in certain cases), since he is for Abortion (in certain cases)?

I think that us as Catholics need to set the bar and NOT waver, and never say, "Well, it's ok to murder here but not murder there", which we are saying when we vote for bush or kerry... [/quote]
it's the lesser of two evils thing. Bush may not be perfect...well let's just say it: He's nowhere near perfect. But he hits closer to the mark than Kerry, and the only two men on Earth who have a chance to be President in January are George Bush and John Kerry. So...we have to go with the one who will be better, or should I say less worse. A vote for a third party candidate would probably be acceptable provided his views were in line with the Church...but it would also be a wasted vote as there is no chance that candidate would win the election.

[smeagol]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Oct 2 2004, 09:05 AM'] voting for Kerry would be taciturn support of abortion. better not to vote at all, if you can not vote for Bush. Bush is the only electable candidate whose record indicates a pro-life stance. His support for the partial birth abortion ban is stellar. While he is not perfect as he does support it in cases of rape or incest, he is better than Kerry when it comes to this.
There are those who say we can't make this election about one issue. But they are wrong. The impact of the war, the economy, these things are [b]debatable[/b]. Abortion is not debatable. We have a clear moral prerogative against abortion. The war in Iraq may be a bad thing, it may not. It has only cost 1050-odd American lives. How many Americans are sacrificed on the altar of abortion each year? And do we support a candidate who though Catholic is too afraid to let his faith influence his politics, and better change the world?

If Kerry came out and outlined a social agenda that was in line with Catholic teachings, then the war would be a very decisive issue for me. However...Kerry is against his Church and he is against her teachings. I don't want him to be president. [/quote]
Bush is against the church and her teachings. but more importantly we must ask the question, who is less opposed to God ? the answer to this question is clearly Kerry. Albeit, neither one syncs to Jesus' teachings (who of us does?) but Kerry is the lesser of two evils.

war directly contradicts everything Jesus taught. while there may be some human justification for certain wars, it is becoming clearer and clearer that Iraq is not one of them. ... someone mentioned that ONLY 1050 Americans have died thus far... only!?! moreover, up to 15,000 INNOCENT Iraqi civilians have been killed as a result of the Bush administration's decision to hastily and sloppily invade and conquer Iraq. but this figure doesn't amount to anything, because i guess we subconsciously believe an innocent Iraqi life is not worth as much as an American soldier's life....

my thinking, as a Kerry supporter, is How in God's name can I vote for someone who committed such an atrocity ? not only did Bush do this, he is PROUD of it! at least Kerry is not proud of abortion, because he is personally opposed to it... ---now some of you think of this as a contradiction, but that's a lack of logic and understanding. i am personally opposed to affairs, premarital sex, drugs, and many other ills of society. HOWEVER, my personal belief has no bearing on whether or not society should allow said action. (note that i said 'allow' as in 'not punish' as opposed to 'condone' or 'support' - there IS a difference)