Voting For Kerry

[toledo_jesus]

compare numbers. Iraq versus American aborted. It's clear where the greater crime is. At least Iraq was meant to do somebody some good. Abortion is self serving and wicked.

How many people [i]are[/i] there on this site who want to make excuses for being totally wrong?

Edited October 4, 2004 by toledo_jesus

[smeagol]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Oct 4 2004, 12:52 PM'] compare numbers. Iraq versus American aborted. It's clear where the greater crime is. At least Iraq was meant to do somebody some good. Abortion is self serving and wicked.

How many people [i]are[/i] there on this site who want to make excuses for being totally wrong? [/quote]
what are the numbers ? i dont know. help inform me.

you're right, the iraqi invasion was meant to some benefit to somebody (i think EVERY action ever committed in the history of mankind was meant to benefit somebody).. a unilateral invasion as such is likewise selfserving and wicked. (at least it was meant to be selfserving although things didnt turn out that way)

abortion is likewise meant to liberate women from sexual oppression. or whatever terminology you choose. (i dont support this view but it deserves to be said)

if you think a vote for kerry is a thumbs up for abortion, why wont you concede that a vote for bush is a thumbs up for war? because neither is the case... i dont want dead babies any more than you want dead iraqis and u.s. soldiers..

How many people [i]are[/i] there on this site who want to make excuses for being totally wrong?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='smeagol' date='Oct 4 2004, 02:49 PM'] Bush is against the church and her teachings. but more importantly we must ask the question, who is less opposed to God ? the answer to this question is clearly Kerry. Albeit, neither one syncs to Jesus' teachings (who of us does?) but Kerry is the lesser of two evils. [/quote]
Bush is not against the Church teachings



[quote]war directly contradicts everything Jesus taught. while there may be some human justification for certain wars, it is becoming clearer and clearer that Iraq is not one of them. ... someone mentioned that ONLY 1050 Americans have died thus far... only!?! moreover, up to 15,000 INNOCENT Iraqi civilians have been killed as a result of the Bush administration's decision to hastily and sloppily invade and conquer Iraq. but this figure doesn't amount to anything, because i guess we subconsciously believe an innocent Iraqi life is not worth as much as an American soldier's life.... [/quote]

War does not contradict everything Jesus taught... the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and clearly states that there is such thing as a Just War - therefore it cannot contradict what Jesus taught.

The Iraqi war CANNOT LOGICALLY be used against Bush in this election because Kerry voted for it.

It was not sloppy. It was a done well, with the least amount of causalties... WHY NOT ask the Iraqi's????? Funny how they're happy for what Bush did.

Your assumtion about the subconscious is wrong... but that arguement has been brought up by the left.

[quote]my thinking, as a Kerry supporter, is How in God's name can I vote for someone who committed such an atrocity ? not only did Bush do this, he is PROUD of it! at least Kerry is not proud of abortion, because he is personally opposed to it... ---now some of you think of this as a contradiction, but that's a lack of logic and understanding. i am personally opposed to affairs, premarital sex, drugs, and many other ills of society.  HOWEVER, my personal belief has no bearing on whether or not society should allow said action. (note that i said 'allow' as in 'not punish' as opposed to 'condone' or 'support' - there IS a difference)[/quote]

Kerry fully supports abortion and is not personally oppossed to it... He is a liar - he told "people" at a Planned Parenthood rally that he fully supports abortion.

[url="http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/20/165557.shtml"]http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/20/165557.shtml[/url]


A vote for Bush is not a thumbs up for war.

Only a fool or someone who didn't know the whole story would have allowed Saddam to stay in power knowing what we know about him and the given circumstances.
[list]
[*]Sanctions upon sanctions and Saddam kept ignoring them
[*]He constantly stalled UN inspectors, if he had nothing to hide, why stall them? What could he possibly want to hide from the UN inspectors looking for WMD's? Hmmmm, it's not rocket science. A little knowledge of human nature and Saddam's history tells us that he had to be removed.
[*]The guy was almost as bad if not worse than Hitler with his human rights violations. We must stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves.
[*]The UN stated that Saddam had WMD's and that they were shipped out of Iraq, before during and after the war, from satellight evidence.
[*]Saddam could have easily prevented the war by letting the UN inspectors inspect where they wanted to go, but he didn't.
[*]The deaths are very sad, but place blame where blame is due; Saddam.
[/list]



CCC 2308
All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority [u][b]with the necessary competence and power[/b][/u], governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."106


CCC 2309
The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
[list]
[*]the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
[*]all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
[*]there must be serious prospects of success;
[*]the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
[/list]

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

[b]The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.[/b]

------------------------------------




Bottom line: Bush is the only choice for a Christian to vote for if the vote is to count. There are in all reality only two people running for president; no one else has a chance to win. President Bush and Kerry.

A vote for kerry is a sign either that of not knowing the facts, or a poorly developed conscience.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[flip]

I think both candidates are ANTI CHRISTIAN.

Bush waged, wages, and supports an UNJUST war. No one on this board can tell me that the war is Just, because our CHURCH has told us that it is UNJUST

Bush supports the death penalty, something that our mother CHURCH has said is UNJUST in America.

Kerry supports abortion, with our mother CHURCH has said is INTRINSICALLY EVIL

Bush supports abortion in certain cases, which our mother CHURCH has said that in ALL CASES abortion is intrinscially EVIL. in ALL CASES, including cases of RAPE, INCEST, and HARM TO THE MOTHERS BODY. IT IS ALWAYS AN INNOCENT KILLING OF LIFE. I think technically, Bush is pro abortion in certain cases.

I think a vote for either candidate would be in support of abortion, and therefore would be considered a mortal sin to support either candidate.
Both candidates smell of elderberries. Both candidates are going aginst the CHURCH and the BODY OF CHRIST.

[cmotherofpirl]

Nope.

Kerry is a hypocrite. He claims to be Catholic and yet he is for abortion.

The Church has not condemned all war or all death penalty, it has condemned all abortion.

Edited October 4, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[flip]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 4 2004, 04:08 PM']
The Church has not condemned all war or all death penalty, it has condemned all abortion. [/quote]
The Church has condemned the war that we are currently in, the church has condemned the death penalty in america, and the church has condemned all abortion, in ALL CASES

Kerry is a hypocritical Catholic, yes.
Bush is also a hypocritical Christian for going against the Body of Christ and the Holy Spirit

[Guest Aluigi]

Ratzinger, the go-to-man when a question arises about hte faith, said that a Catholic may disagree with the Holy Father in regards to the APPLICATION of war/death penalty. we agree in doctrine, but maybe one Catholic believes that doctrine can justify the Iraqui war and another Catholic believes that doctrine doesn't justify the Iraqui war... the reason? the Church's expertice lies in matters of faith and morals, the disagreement between Catholics would not subsist in the faith or morality, but rather in specific elements of the war... i.e. was saddam a threat? should America have dealt with that threat in that way? how much of a threat was he? what exactly did the intelligence point to about him?

the Church is not going to define that Saddam Hussein was not threatening enough to go to war, because the Church is not an expert on Saddam Hussein.

[flip]

did not the Church say that this war was unjust?

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote]3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

[/quote]--Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

yes, the Holy Father opposed the war. No, the Catholic Church did not call the war unjust. The Holy Father considers it unjust, based on his view of the intelligence and the situation. I respect his opinion, but Ratzinger cleared it up, it is only the Holy Father's opinion, not the Church's. Refer to my above explanation then.

[Antonius]

[quote name='TraditionalCatholic' date='Oct 2 2004, 10:05 PM'][url="http://www.infowars.com/print/Secret_societies/kerry_bush_sb.htm"]http://www.infowars.com/print/Secret_socie...rry_bush_sb.htm[/url]

Yes, Alex Jones on that site can be extreme at times. But the fact is true in this nature.[/quote]
hey, try to stay away from the alex jones dude. while it might be possible that there are conspiracies in the world today, that guy is just a little nutty.

[color=red]Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.[/color] In my opinion.

Bush is not a smart guy and is not conservative. Yes, he's pro life, but he's also for big government and spending money that i'm not 100% sure we have. While he will support some important Catholic issues, he will also trample upon other values we hold dear.

Kerry is certainly not a model Catholic and supports abortion. He does seem, however, that he is smarter (except the killing of innocent life is a stupid, evil thing to do) than Bush and can get the country back in proper gear.

Bush seems the spiritual candidate and Kerry the secular candidate. Bush and Kerry both build the City of Man and not the City of God, and I can only pray that the Holy Spirit guides me into making the right, honest choice.

We should never choose evil.

[flip]

I agree, i do not want anyone who supports abortion in ANY CASE to get my vote.

If the Kerry voters have to confession for supporting abortion, so do the bush voters (for supporting abortion in some cases)

I want to make a write in for the Pope

[Guest Aluigi]

no, because to vote for bush is to vote for making it BETTER than it is now. that's not evil, that's GOOD.

I wouldn't be too sure Kerry's gonna do better for our country economically either. you think bush is for big gov't'? Kerry's for even bigger gov't'

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='flip' date='Oct 5 2004, 03:29 AM'] I agree, i do not want anyone who supports abortion in ANY CASE to get my vote.

If the Kerry voters have to confession for supporting abortion, so do the bush voters (for supporting abortion in some cases)

I want to make a write in for the Pope [/quote]
Nope.

Kerry is disquaified by his "slice and dice for any reason stance' and the fact he claims to be catholic. He is a public scandal for the Catholic Church.
I do not even consider him a candidate and I happen to be a registered Democrat.

I will vote for President Bush. Voting for the Holy Father is a waste of a good vote since he is not a viable candidate.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='flip' date='Oct 5 2004, 01:29 AM'] I agree, i do not want anyone who supports abortion in ANY CASE to get my vote.

If the Kerry voters have to confession for supporting abortion, so do the bush voters (for supporting abortion in some cases)

I want to make a write in for the Pope [/quote]
Cardinal Ratzinger actually wrote something that says it's okay for you to vote for Bush, pretty much because he's the lesser of two evils, and we're always supposed to minimize the evil done as Catholics.

[Guest Aluigi]

think of it this way: the way the situation is is evil. there's a fork in the road, Kerry's way faces deeper into the evil we've gotten ourselves into, and Bush's way faces towards the good.

[flip]

but why put your vote behind something that is evil as abortion? bush and kerry support abortion. One in all cases, the other in some cases...


by voting for Bush, you are voting for "slicing and dicing" babies! You are voting for ABORTION in some cases! You are voting for the slaying of innocent lives! How can a Catholic do THAT!??!?!?!

Do we not see the ultimate evil in ABORTION?

if we vote for kerry, we vote for aboriton.
if we vote for bush, we vote for abortion.

Edited October 6, 2004 by flip

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='flip' date='Oct 6 2004, 01:03 PM'] but why put your vote behind something that is evil as abortion? bush and kerry support abortion. One in all cases, the other in some cases...


by voting for Bush, you are voting for "slicing and dicing" babies! You are voting for ABORTION in some cases! You are voting for the slaying of innocent lives! How can a Catholic do THAT!??!?!?!

Do we not see the ultimate evil in ABORTION?

if we vote for kerry, we vote for aboriton.
if we vote for bush, we vote for abortion. [/quote]
No, if we vote for Bush, we vote against abortion because, in practicality, Bush is the best hope for the ultimate end of abortion in this election.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 4 2004, 04:08 PM'] The Church has not condemned all war or all death penalty, it has condemned all abortion. [/quote]
That's funny. In the Old Testament, God seems to be all for war and the death penalty, and I don't recall God saying that the death penalty was abolished in the New Testament.

Edited October 6, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Guest Aluigi]

ICTHUS, you realize you're affirming CMOM's statement? It sounded like you were agreeing with her in a tone that made it sound like you disagreed with her. The Church has NOT condemned all war or the death penalty. Really? he wasn't agaisnt war and the death penalty in the OT... lol

[ICTHUS]

On the contrary, I was disagreeing with the extent of the statement. God decrees the death penalty, [i]always[/i], for certain sins.