Kerry

[qfnol31]

Well, I know many people argue that Kerry will help the economy. One of the best things he will do is raise the minimum wage. But is this not shooting himself in the foot?

Whenever you create a price floor for something, that it, if you create a minimum price for an object, you increase the supply of that object. I'll give you an example: The government tries to create a minimum price on gasoline.

[img]http://1scom.net/~mwkeith/sd1.JPG[/img]
This is a graph of the supply and demand, as given by economics. In here, you can see a point where the amount supplied = the amound demanded. That point is where prices normally stay, so there is not excess. Most people will supply more at higher prices, but most people will buy less at higher prices, is this not true? That is where our gasoline prices will be. Granted, there are things that can shift the graphs right or left, but there is always a point where they meet.

Here's what happens with a price floor:[img]http://1scom.net/~mwkeith/sd2.JPG[/img]Here you see a pink line showing how there is now a minimum price on gasoline. The line that goes up from left to right is the amount of gasoline supplied. The line that goes down from left to right is the amount demanded. There is less demanded at a higher price because people can't afford it. Here's my point with labor, with higher prices less people can afford it.

Now this will lead to one of three things, or all three:
[list]
[*]Less jobs will be available to those who need them.
[*]More companies who can't afford the labor will have to go under. Once again, less jobs.
[*]Companies, especially fast food, will start hiring older labor, and there again, less jobs for teens. Now, this doesn't seem so bad, but what about the teen who is helping by making $5.50 an hour? That's helping his parents out a lot, and this will hurt if he can't work anymore because he can't get hired.
[/list]
Now inflation will happen, the money will be worth less, prices will go up, and nobody will be helped.

What do you think?

[Colleen]

I think you're right. Raising the miniumum wage will also put stress on families (especially the poor), because as the minimum wage goes up, so will prices for everything else (like food, clothing, etc.).

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]I think you're right. Raising the miniumum wage will also put stress on families (especially the poor), because as the minimum wage goes up, so will prices for everything else (like food, clothing, etc.). [/quote]
Only because the rich are greedy. Not because of an economic imperative. They can just not make as much net profit.



[quote]Companies, especially fast food, will start hiring older labor, and there again, less jobs for teens. Now, this doesn't seem so bad, but what about the teen who is helping by making $5.50 an hour? That's helping his parents out a lot, and this will hurt if he can't work anymore because he can't get hired.[/quote]
Why old labor?I don't understand how you made that conclusion.


As for the other two criteria.

Just because you lose jobs or don't create jobs isn't a bad thing for one. If people are not being treated properly such as with minimum wage, then you need to stop business of expanding. I am assuming a set resource supply that we use on a year to year basis. Stop having more quantity but less quality. It all comes down to quantity vs quality. At a certain point, most would say we need a certain quality so stop trying to get more people into the system! I realize as Catholics most of you would blieve that more people is better even if it means less quality. I also recognize that a few of you would say quality is a must; draw the line with trying to expand the economy.

Also. It seems that helping the poor might actually stimulate the economy. Poor would have more money to spend. Business would increase. More help means more and more of this. Many would say you would then lose the rich who run the country. This is not the case. You only lessen the riches stand to the point of ensuring just quaity of life.

So it seems you need to find a balance between quaity quantity. I'd say socialism and capitalism too. But you need to understand why I say this. If you're being just with your citizens, you wouldn't need socialism. Socialistic aspects are only to curtail unfair abuses of capitalism. For example, I need this one person to make everything the world needs. I should it would seem if I were just pay him a lot. But I see that I can make him compete with so many others and can thus pay him next to nothing. You'd need a socialistic tool to curtail it. (whether or not this is justifying the means or is lesser of two evils or is not really evil to begin with is a whole nuther post!)

The sad thing is, too many here believe in that example. (even if they don't realize it) Maybe there's something I'm missing.

Edited October 29, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[rachael]

[quote name='Colleen' date='Oct 28 2004, 10:05 PM'] I think you're right. Raising the miniumum wage will also put stress on families (especially the poor), because as the minimum wage goes up, so will prices for everything else (like food, clothing, etc.). [/quote]
prices will go up because people will be able to afford more. inflation. yuck.

stupid econ class.

[Iacobus]

I think putting off rasing the wage to a startard at which it is liviable and, well, just should be a prority over the reisk of inflation, which can be controled and is GOOD if you have debt. Which a lot of people do.

[Sinner]

heaven forbid we would let the open American market determine minimum wage....... oh my!

[Good Friday]

[quote name='qfnol31']What do you think?[/quote]
I think that people can't live in this country on $5.15 an hour, and the church's social doctrine demands a living wage. [i]Roma locuta est; causa finita est?[/i]

[Ricky2]

Correct me if Im wrong, but dont the states that require a higher minumum wage than the federal govt. also have a higher unemployment rate than the national average?

[Guest Aluigi]

but what about qfnol31s theory that to increase the minimum wage would take away jobs? Pehaps there is another solution? (I'm not an economics expert, but unless you refute qfnol he seems to make a good point that that could harm, and thus not only less than living wage: no job wage) I donno... just thinking aloud. Raising the minimum wage doesn't seem to be exactly the right answer for producing jobs with living wages.

[Guest Aluigi]

Ricky2, if you're right, that would seem to be evidence in support of qfnol31's theory. This is interesting... (I just don't know that much about economics, though probably know more than many of my peers, so I really can't say one way or the other)

Edited October 29, 2004 by Aluigi

[CatholicforChrist]

Does Rome's voice not count on abortion, stem cell research, and all other social issues? It is ridiculous that people will make minimum wage (which the Church's social doctrine does not demand to be increased or even at a fixed or given amount, only that the workingman be given at least enough for him to live, as stated in Pope Leo XIII's [i]Rerum Novarum[/i]) to be an important issue when every basic social issue is broken by that candidate--including the Fifth Commandment, among other things (and the Sixth with his pro-homosexual abomination laws)

[Good Friday]

[quote name='Aluigi']but what about qfnol31s theory that to increase the minimum wage would take away jobs? Pehaps there is another solution? (I'm not an economics expert, but unless you refute qfnol he seems to make a good point that that could harm, and thus not only less than living wage: no job wage) I donno... just thinking aloud. Raising the minimum wage doesn't seem to be exactly the right answer for producing jobs with living wages.[/quote]
I'm not an economic expert either, and I don't have any idea how to refute what he (or she? I honestly don't know) said. I'm simply saying that the church's doctrine requires a living wage for everyone; even if what is said here is true, what are we to do with those who cannot live on $5.15 an hour? That's a question that has to be answered by any Catholic who proposes that the minimum wage be left as it is, and especially by those who propose that it be abolished.

[CatholicforChrist]

That is a secondary (if that) issue in this election. There are greater issues that need to be addressed. How can any Catholic write off abortion, stem cells, pro-homosexual abomination rights, etc, etc, etc, for social justice reform? That is truly incredible. In any event, it is well within the confines of Catholic social teaching to maintain that there is no obligation for a minimum wage, but sadly (as a result of Industrialization) there has been a complete change in the working system, and there seems to be no solution to the horrible hole we have ourselves in today. If only we could turn back the clock a century and reject the Industrial Revolution!

[Guest Aluigi]

but if what is said here is true, then to raise the minimum wage will make other people not have a living wage. that wouldn't be good. I don't know the answer, but if this theory is correct it would seem the way it is now is better than it would be if the minimum wage were raised.

[Guest Aluigi]

While that is true that those things are more important; the topic of this thread is whether or not the minimum wage should be raised.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='CatholicforChrist']Does Rome's voice not count on abortion, stem cell research, and all other social issues? It is ridiculous that people will make minimum wage (which the Church's social doctrine does not demand to be increased or even at a fixed or given amount, only that the workingman be given at least enough for him to live, as stated in Pope Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum) to be an important issue when every basic social issue is broken by that candidate--including the Fifth Commandment, among other things (and the Sixth with his pro-homosexual abomination laws)[/quote]
"That candidate"? I'm not discussing "that candidate," I'm discussing the minimum wage. Do you see "that candidate" anywhere in my responses? I didn't think so.

I recognize that there are bigger social issues than the minimum wage, but what I'm longing for is an American Church that accepts all of the church's doctrine and not just some of it. I'm longing for Catholics that don't go screaming and whining about everything they [i]like[/i] about the church's doctrine, but then turn around and say: "Well, that's negotiable," when they encounter something they [i]don't like[/i]. The fact is that regardless of the rest of the church's social doctrine, and regardless of its higher import, the church [i]commands[/i] that everyone should have a living wage -- and $5.15 ain't it. What are you going to do about it, faithful son of the church?

[Guest Aluigi]

But say qfnol31 is right, then to RAISE the minimum wage is not going to make everyone have a living wage.

everyone who is willing to work for it deserves a decent living wage. how best to acheive that, I'm not quite sure. But this theory makes me wary of the idea that to achieve that we should raise the minimum wage. If that's gonna cause increased unemployment (if i wasn't so lazy and tired and in need of doing hw i'd look into Ricky2's example to verify) then don't do that. There's probably some plan by which we can get people to not have to take the minimum wage jobs somehow. Teenagers living with their parents who just wanna pay for the latest CD do not deserve a living wage. Adults who live on their own do. There needs to be a policy that deals with the intricacies of this, somehow make it so adults don't need minimum wage jobs, or maybe there be seperate minimum wage based on age levels? I don't know, there's gotta be something better than just a generic raising of the minimum wage.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='Aluigi']I don't know, there's gotta be something better than just a generic raising of the minimum wage.[/quote]
Well -- and look, I don't mean to be snippy, but I don't think people are grasping this -- we need to come up with some way to resolve this pretty quick, because there are families barely surviving on the minimum wage, with malnourished children who have holes in their clothes and whose shoes are leaking, who can't even afford enough of the basic necessities because their families can't make it on two minimum wage jobs.

These are real people we're talking about, not ideas and theories. The reason most people aren't pro-life is because they can't wrap their mind around the idea that the fetus is a human person; am I to assume that the reason we're not doing something about the poor is because enough of us can't wrap our mind around the idea that a poor person is a human person?

It would be nice if there were a political party that was pro-life, but that also didn't believe in crucifying the poor and vulnerable who have been born.

[qfnol31]

Thanks for keeping this on topic Al.

[Guest Aluigi]

i think an age-limit minimum wage would be a good idea. people who live on their own and are willing to work should have the oppurtunity to work and get a decent living wage. but if we just hike up the minimum wage we're gonna hurt the economy bad thus not helping stuff. maybe decrease the kid's minimum wage and increase the adult's, keeping the current balance while giving the people who need it to survive and are unable to get a job that pays more than minimum wage the better salary. yeah this is all a bunch of theory, but in order to help the people through government you gotta get the theory right. just giving them better wages if it hurts the economy will just help those specific people while throwing other people down.

anyway, i'm likin the fact that i just made up this original idea of age limit stuff, and i'm a teen so it's not like i'm biased. maybe it would work? i don't know...