Not Christian without Mary?

[Scofizzle]

Our pastor gave his homily tonight at Mass and I thought it was very good.

He started off talking about how protestants ask Catholics why they worship Mary. his answer was simple yet satifying. His premise was simply that you cannot be Christian without believing in the Chruch's stnace on Mary. He said said that:

1. Christ was sinnless, so he obeyed all 10 commandments. including number 4 honor thy mother and father. So Christ did this all the time. He then went to explain that the word honor in hebrew can also be trasnlated into glorify. So Jesus glorified his mother, all the time.

2. As Christians we are called to imitate Christ.

His explanation was much better of coarse.....but i found it to be a great homily

[qfnol31]

It's true.

[homeschoolmom]

interesting...

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Dec 13 2004, 02:58 AM'] Our pastor gave his homily tonight at Mass and I thought it was very good.

He started off talking about how protestants ask Catholics why they worship Mary. his answer was simple yet satifying. His premise was simply that you cannot be Christian without believing in the Chruch's stnace on Mary. He said said that:

1. Christ was sinnless, so he obeyed all 10 commandments. including number 4 honor thy mother and father. So Christ did this all the time. He then went to explain that the word honor in hebrew can also be trasnlated into glorify. So Jesus glorified his mother, all the time.

2. As Christians we are called to imitate Christ.

His explanation was much better of coarse.....but i found it to be a great homily [/quote]
Sure, I honour Mary. She was, no doubt, the greatest among the New Testament saints. In this respect, I think many Protestants are guilty of a grave sin by neglecting, or even downplaying, the importance of Mary's role in God's plan.

However, I repudiate all anti-Biblical elevation of her, almost to the level of a goddess, including the Immaculate Conception.

[color=red]nope [/color]

[Obviously, there is a syncretistic mixture of Christianity and Goddess-worship going on in the Roman Catholic Church with its continual elevation of Mary beyond what Scripture tells us about her.

Edited December 13, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[p0lar_bear]

First, this is not the debate table.

Second, you know that what that website says is simply not true.

If you want to debate Mary's Immaculate Conception and other dogmas relating to Mary, feel free to start a thread in the debate phorum.

[homeschoolmom]

oh c'mon... you can find websites that state for a fact that the moon is made out of blue coagulated milk and inhabited by little green men, but that doesn't make it true.

Mary as goddess is not Church teaching and you know it.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Dec 13 2004, 08:47 AM'] oh c'mon... you can find websites that state for a fact that the moon is made out of blue coagulated milk and inhabited by little green men, but that doesn't make it true.

Mary as goddess is not Church teaching and you know it. [/quote]
Sure, but there are lots of people who are Roman Catholics who are either uneducated and don't know that (and come from backgrounds like the Mayans or Celtic Druidism who [i]do[/i] have goddess worship) or not Roman Catholics and look at the Church's teaching and think "Goddess worship"

For that reason alone, the practise of Marian devotion and elevation should be abandoned.

[homeschoolmom]

abandoned?

why not just better explained or rather do better education of the faithful?

I have a Jewish friend who doesn't understand how we can say there is a Trinity and yet maintain there is one God. Since I am sure that this concept is widely misunderstood, should we abandon the idea of the Trinity?

[p0lar_bear]

The fact that some people misunderstand or misconstrue the truth is no reason to abandon it.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Dec 13 2004, 08:51 AM'] The fact that some people misunderstand or misconstrue the truth is no reason to abandon it. [/quote]
Yes, but it's non-essential (a person won't go to Hell for not praying to Mary), and has the potential to lead more souls to Hell due to idolatry and placing trust for salvation in a person who can't ultimately save them, then allowing it to go on.

[p0lar_bear]

Take it to the debate table.

[Phatmasser777]

Thats bull. You dont need Mary to be a proper or faithful Christian, the word Christians contains CHRIST, it doesnt say 'Christmarians' does it? The amount of 'attn' Mary has now, was nowhere near this amount in apostolic times, or even into the 2nd century.

[MagiDragon]

no, you don't need Mary . . . unless you plan on winning battles against the devil. If you're content to yield ground all the way to hell, then go right ahead.

Read the Bible! Revelation 11:19-12:1 strongly implies that Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. (Revelation may have been written before Mary's death, so it could have been innappropriate to name her directly in such a passage, but can you offer other suggestions for who the 'woman clothed with the sun' might be?) Also, remember what the Ark was: a case that held the bread of life in the desert, the word of God, and the staff of priesthood. Look at Mary, what did she hold? The Bread of Life, the Word of God, and the eternal Priest. See any similarities?

Also, we know that Mary is Queen of Heaven: the old testament foreshadows the new Davidic kingdom. Who is queen in the Davidic kingdom? The king's wife? NO! it's the king's mom!

What is the Queen's role in the Kingdom? She's the intercessor. People go to her to ask for things from the King. Look in first Kings 2:12-2:18. You'll see that the way the people treated the Queen is almost exactly as we treat Mary: we ask her to get stuff for us from the King.

Also, we must treat the Queen with the same respect as the King treats her. (See 1Kings2:19)

Mary deserves our respect and we are obligated to give it. To be a faithful Christian we *MUST* respect Mary.

And don't insult Our Mom again!

Peace,
Joe

[mark3200]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 13 2004, 08:53 AM'] Yes, but it's non-essential (a person won't go to Hell for not praying to Mary), and has the potential to lead more souls to Hell due to idolatry and placing trust for salvation in a person who can't ultimately save them, then allowing it to go on. [/quote]
Odd. Last time I checked, veneration and worship were different. Wait a minute...Hail Mary, etc...."pray for us, oh Holy Mother of God..." Where in there do we pray to Her, as opposed to asking Her to pray for us?

This is always tough to wrap one's brain around as a Protestant. It was for me. As a former Protestant, trust me - it's not idolatry, or placing Mary before God or anything of the sort.

[Brother Adam]

lol. Yeah, the cross is offensive there bud. but right... it's not essential, let's abandon it? What does that say about integrity? Honesty? Picking up our crosses and bearing them for the truth?

If another soul ends up in hell because someone would not give up truth, that is between that soul and God. If someone tells me to abandon the offense of the cross and they will consider becoming Christian, it ain't gonna happen.

Mary is as much a foundational part of the Gospel as John the Baptist is, and even more so. Education, not abandonment is the path to true freedom.

[I Choose to Be Holy]

Hey, this is cool. I am all about the devotions to Mary. I once read that Jesus doesn't pick favorites, but His mother does. I thought that was kind of funny. Please don't bite my head off though if I am completely off but here is my 2 cents:
1) As Christians, we don't NEED Mary and the saints and such, but it is a gift from God to make our journey to heaven easier. Its not something we have to do, its something we get to do.
2) Jesus was sinless, yes. I doubt anyone would attempt to argue that. However, being sinless doesn't mean He kept the 613 precepts of Torah. That was one of the reasons the Pharisees had such a problem with Him. He worked on Sabbath, for example. Its like Paul's letter to the Galatians. Works don't equal sinlessness. However, thats completely off topic but based on the original post I wanted to clarify it.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 13 2004, 04:01 PM'] lol. Yeah, the cross is offensive there bud. but right... it's not essential, let's abandon it? What does that say about integrity? Honesty? Picking up our crosses and bearing them for the truth?

If another soul ends up in hell because someone would not give up truth, that is between that soul and God. If someone tells me to abandon the offense of the cross and they will consider becoming Christian, it ain't gonna happen.

Mary is as much a foundational part of the Gospel as John the Baptist is, and even more so. Education, not abandonment is the path to true freedom. [/quote]
The veneration (read: worship) of Mary is not foundational to the Gospel.

[peach_cube]

The moon is totally made of coagulated milk!!

Check it [url="http://www.objectivethought.com/science/coagulated milk.html"]out!!!![/url]

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 13 2004, 05:48 PM'] The veneration (read: worship) of Mary is not foundational to the Gospel. [/quote]
Dr. Luke doesn't seem to agree. "Hail Mary, full of grace..." "all generations shall call me blessed..." "blessed are you among woman...."

And no, of course ICTHUS, veneration does not equal worship. Just who are you trying to kid? Yourself?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='peach_cube' date='Dec 13 2004, 06:33 PM'] The moon is totally made of coagulated milk!!

Check it [url="http://www.objectivethought.com/science/coagulated milk.html"]out!!!![/url]


[/quote]
see? i told you...