Not Christian without Mary?

[Benedict]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 13 2004, 03:48 PM'] The veneration (read: worship) of Mary is not foundational to the Gospel. [/quote]
Icthus just has a reading problem. He keeps changing the meaning of words around.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 13 2004, 11:48 PM'] The veneration (read: worship) of Mary is not foundational to the Gospel. [/quote]
Luke 1:46-56


46And Mary said: ?My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me?
holy is his name. 50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation. 51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts. 52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble. 53He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. 54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful 55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers.?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Benedict' date='Dec 13 2004, 08:17 PM'] Icthus just has a reading problem. He keeps changing the meaning of words around. [/quote]
ICTHUS is just trying to get a bug up our behinds. He knows better but does it anyway.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Dec 13 2004, 01:59 PM'] no, you don't need Mary . . . unless you plan on winning battles against the devil. If you're content to yield ground all the way to hell, then go right ahead.

Read the Bible! Revelation 11:19-12:1 strongly implies that Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. (Revelation may have been written before Mary's death, so it could have been innappropriate to name her directly in such a passage, but can you offer other suggestions for who the 'woman clothed with the sun' might be?) Also, remember what the Ark was: a case that held the bread of life in the desert, the word of God, and the staff of priesthood. Look at Mary, what did she hold? The Bread of Life, the Word of God, and the eternal Priest. See any similarities?

Also, we know that Mary is Queen of Heaven: the old testament foreshadows the new Davidic kingdom. Who is queen in the Davidic kingdom? The king's wife? NO! it's the king's mom!

What is the Queen's role in the Kingdom? She's the intercessor. People go to her to ask for things from the King. Look in first Kings 2:12-2:18. You'll see that the way the people treated the Queen is almost exactly as we treat Mary: we ask her to get stuff for us from the King.

Also, we must treat the Queen with the same respect as the King treats her. (See 1Kings2:19)

Mary deserves our respect and we are obligated to give it. To be a faithful Christian we *MUST* respect Mary.

And don't insult Our Mom again!

Peace,
Joe [/quote]
Christians have been 'defeating' the 'devil' for centuries without Mary. Plus its God who has the power not Mary. Its God who gives the power to humans to cast our demons not Mary.

[Archangel]

Genesis 3:15 tells us who is on God and Mary's side and who is on the devil's:

[b]I will put enmity between you and the woman, and [u]between your offspring and hers[/u];[/b] He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 14 2004, 03:58 AM'] Christians have been 'defeating' the 'devil' for centuries without Mary. Plus its God who has the power not Mary. Its God who gives the power to humans to cast our demons not Mary. [/quote]
what you didn't know this?

THis has nothing to do with the veneration given to the first great disciple - Mary, the Mother of God.

I suggest you go read the Early Church Fathers.

Edited December 14, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Don John of Austria]

Veneration of Mary is good, however, as much as it pains me, I must agree with Ithcus veneration of Mary is not required for salvation.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 14 2004, 10:52 AM'] Veneration of Mary is good, however, as much as it pains me, I must agree with Ithcus veneration of Mary is not required for salvation. [/quote]
It is true that veneration of Mary is not necessary for salvation. However, if someone denies any of the Marian dogmas, he is outside of the Catholic Faith and his salvation, while still possible, is called into question. To deny one part of the Catholic Faith is to deny it in its entirety. Pope Pius XII makes reference to this (which is commonly called the organic unity of the faith) in his Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus, defining the Assumption:

[quote]45. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.[/quote]

While the veneration of Mary is not necessary, believing in her Immaculate Conception is. ICTHUS didn't start this thread to say that we don't have to pray the rosary to be saved, but to say that the Church should deny the Immaculate Conception and other beliefs about Mary because some people don't understand them.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]However, if someone denies any of the Marian dogmas, he is outside of the Catholic Faith and his salvation, while still possible, is called into question[/quote]



True, however, acceptance of the Marian Doctrines is not what is at issue here, only her Veneration. Veneration is not required for salvation, veneration is not required by the Church.

[p0lar_bear]

But that's not what ICTHUS was talking about. He started by saying he repudiated all the "anti-Biblical" beliefs about Mary and that the Church should drop them because they confused people.

I agree that veneration is not necessary. I just want to be clear that the Church cannot give up the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, because they are necessary.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 14 2004, 07:27 AM'] what you didn't know this?

THis has nothing to do with the veneration given to the first great disciple - Mary, the Mother of God.

I suggest you go read the Early Church Fathers. [/quote]
I have, and there is NOTHING on the scale of the 'border-line' worship there is today. There is a tonne, TONNE of respect but no parades, prayers etc until atleast the 4th century.

[Benedict]

How did you miss the [i]Sub Tuum Praesidium [/i]from the 3rd?

We fly to your patronage,
O Holy Mother of God,
despise not our petitions
in our necessities,
but deliver us from all danger,
O ever glorious and blessed Virgin.

(AD 250)

[Oik]

Read [i]Hail, Holy Queen[/i] by Scott Hahn. He talks about Marian devotion before the fourth century.

[Apotheoun]

As an Eastern Catholic I would hold that the veneration of the saints is necessary, because in venerating the saints one venerates God who made them holy. The practice of the Christian faith is a holistic experience, and so to deny one component of it, no matter how minor it may appear to be, affects the whole.

[jasJis]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 13 2004, 08:50 AM'] Sure, but there are lots of people who are Roman Catholics who are either uneducated and don't know that (and come from backgrounds like the Mayans or Celtic Druidism who [i]do[/i] have goddess worship) or not Roman Catholics and look at the Church's teaching and think "Goddess worship"

For that reason alone, the practise of Marian devotion and elevation should be abandoned. [/quote]
Anything worth doing, is worth doing poorly.


Just because we imperfect people cannot worship God perfectly and venerate God's glory He infused in Mary by working His Grace through her acceptance of His Will, doesn't mean we shouldn't try. In trying, we head towards Him. In giving Him our failures, He gives us Victory. To not try is to be like the stupid and fearful servant who buried his talent so he wouldn't lose it. That pissed off the Master who punished him. Better to invest your talents of Faith in all that God has Glorified Himself, and that includes Mary, because Scripture tells us that her Soul Glorifies God and that the Holy Spirit overshadowed her.

[ICTHUS]

[quote]What is the Queen's role in the Kingdom?  She's the intercessor.  People go to her to ask for things from the King.  Look in first Kings 2:12-2:18.  You'll see that the way the people treated the Queen is almost exactly as we treat Mary: we ask her to get stuff for us from the King.[/quote] Read it, and I'm not convinced. You're forgetting I was once a Roman Catholic apologist.

Have you forgotten that our King died for us, and that no one who comes to Him, He will cast out? Why then do we need to entreat His Mother for things? Has He not promised to bless us with those things if we but ask?

[quote]Mary deserves our respect and we are obligated to give it.  To be a faithful Christian we *MUST* respect Mary.[/quote] Respect, yes. She is a wonderful New Testament model of faith and humility - besides Jesus, I would hazard to say the best in the entire Scriptures.

Worship such as the Catholic Church gives her, however? No. Mary is to be respected, not elevated to the level of a demi-goddess by giving her titles such as Immaculately Conceived, Queen of Heaven, Co-redemptrix, Sinless, Advocate, Benefactrix, Advocate, and co-Mediatrix.

[quote]And don't insult Our Mom again![/quote] I wasn't insulting her. And I'll thank you not to insult my Lord and Saviour again by lifting up His mother to a level where she is almost equal to Him.

[Archangel]

The miracle at Cana shows just how powerful Mary's intercession is. Jesus could've helped the wedding couple, but He didn't until Mary asked Him to.

Modern day Catholics aren't the only ones holding Mary in such high esteem. The Early Church Fathers esteemed her as well:

St. Irenaeus

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also [b]Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith[/b]" (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

St. Ephraim

"[b]You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother.[/b] Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?" (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).

St. Ambrose

"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from [b]Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin[/b]" (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).


If there's any "worship" of Mary, then God was the first one when He greeted her through the message of the angel Gabriel, "Hail, full of grace."

[ICTHUS]

The words of mere men saying something is true, do not make it true.

[Archangel]

So were they lying?

[Benedict]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 25 2004, 01:49 AM'] The words of mere men saying something is true, do not make it true. [/quote]
A response without substance . . . and an irony at that.

Edited December 25, 2004 by Benedict