The Ultimate Sacrifice/Cure for Abortion?

[Don John of Austria]

so Socrates you decided to abandon the Whole " the Romans where converted by peaceful sweetness " tract Good it made you look foolish.

[Socrates]

I abandoned nothing. I've got better things to do with my time. This is a blatant distortion of what I was saying in my post and you know it!

There were many martyrs early Church, but no terrorists! The early Christians did not run around killing people to spread the Faith, and the Church had already spread considerably before Constantine. And of course, the Faith continued to spread after Constantine.

The facts about Constantine do not change my point. Constantine was an actual general in an actual war and had a legitimate claim to the throne. He was not just some guy who decided to wage violence against society for a righteous cause.

And without the peaceful witness of the martyrs, it is doubtful that the Empire would have been much Christianized.

How many "terrorist" saints do you know? (not soldiers, but revolutionary killers)

[color=red][Edited by Kilroy the Ninja: Name-calling is not allowed.][/color]

I could say a lot more, but I shall shake the dust from my feet and move on.

Edited January 4, 2005 by Kilroy the Ninja

[cathqat]

Do you say the same of [i]Pacem in Terris[/i] and other Church documents, that they are heretical too?

[quote]But first We must speak of [i]man's rights. Man has the right to live.[/i] He has the right to bodily integrity and to the means necessary for the proper development of life, particularly food, clothing, shelter, medical care, rest, and, finally, the necessary social services. In consequence, he has the right to be looked after in the event of illhealth; disability stemming from his work; widowhood; old age; enforced unemployment; or whenever through no fault of his own he is deprived of the means of livelihood.... [i]He has the natural right to share in the benefits of culture, and hence to receive a good general education, and a technical or professional training consistent with the degree of educational development in his own country. Furthermore, a system must be devised for affording gifted members of society the opportunity of engaging in more advanced studies[/i], with a view to their occupying, as far as possible, positions of responsibility in society in keeping with their natural talent and acquired skill. - Pacem in Terris [/quote]

Pius XII taught the same "heresy," as did [i]Gravissimus Educationis[/i].... And the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, too!

[quote][i]Every human being has a right to culture[/i], which is the specific mode of a truly human existence to which one gains access through the development of one's intellectual capacities, moral virtues, abilities to relate with other human beings, and talents for creating things which are useful and beautiful. [i]From this flows the necessity of promoting and spreading education, to which every individual has an inalienable right.[/i][/quote]

Edited January 4, 2005 by cathqat

[voiciblanche]

[quote name='PHATMike' date='Jan 3 2005, 12:55 PM'] And if you are right and this is okay...then why aren't we doing it now? Because in our hearts we know its wrong. [/quote]
Apparently it's because we have no courage, etc.

Honestly, I think that if the Church said right now that we should have a physical war on abortion, most of the people on this website would listen. However, the Church hasn't said that so we're looking at Scripture and Tradition and past things said by the Magesterium, trying to figure out whether or not it's something we could morally and/or should at this point do.


[quote]It is not simply "selfish" to desire an education or employment.[/quote]

It's selfish to desire an education or employment over the life of your own child.

[quote] Do the mother and child's rights "conflict"?[/quote]

If there were a right to education or employment (which I doubt there is), it would certainly be "overridden" by a child's right to life.

[quote]There is no question that women lack sufficient access to education and support services.[/quote]

That's no reason to kill a baby.

[quote]You tell them that it's not a problem.[/quote]

It's not a problem that will be solved by abortion.



And on a side note -- rights are forfeited by certain actions, are they not? It seems that many of the "rights" that are being discussed are surrendered when they are abused.

[cathqat]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jan 3 2005, 10:58 PM']It's selfish to desire an education or employment over the life of your own child.[/quote]

I already said nothing justifies abortion. Read it again.

[quote]If there were a right to education or employment (which I doubt there is)[/quote]

The Church explicitly teaches that there is. I have quoted more than one document already. If you don't want to believe what the Church teaches, that's your choice.

[quote]it would certainly be "overridden" by a child's right to life.[/quote]

It would not if we were doing what the Pope tells us to: "Profound changes are needed in the attitudes and organization of society in order to facilitate the participation of women in public life, while at the same time providing for the special obligations of women and of men with regard to their families.... Nor should the special difficulties and problems faced by single women living alone or those who head families be neglected."

[quote]That's no reason to kill a baby.... It's not a problem that will be solved by abortion.[/quote]

As I have already said, more than once, there is no justification for killing a baby. There is no problem that can or will be solved by abortion. We all agree on that.

But unless we address the root causes of abortion, it will not go away.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 3 2005, 07:54 PM'] If that is true, then why did he call it heretical? [/quote]
Did he?

Vatican II lines up with the Magisterium from before. It doesn't contradict anything, just rewords it.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 3 2005, 11:23 PM'] But unless we address the root causes of abortion, it will not go away. [/quote]
What exactly are you calling the root causes of abortion?

I'm having a hard time feeling empathy for people who allow others to influence them in such a grave matter.

[voiciblanche]

[quote]I already said nothing justifies abortion. Read it again.[/quote]

Oh, I've read it. I don't understand why you're explaining or justifying an argument with which you say you don't agree.

[quote]The Church explicitly teaches that there is. I have quoted more than one document already. If you don't want to believe what the Church teaches, that's your choice.[/quote]

I believe that there are ways to forfeit rights, such as education, and many uneducated women have done so, or their parents/relatives for them.

[quote]But unless we address the root causes of abortion, it will not go away.[/quote]

I agree, but I think there's right and wrong ways to address the causes.

[cathqat]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jan 3 2005, 11:29 PM']Did he?[/quote]

I posted:
[quote]In fact, the Church considers [education and employment] basic human rights (c.f. Pacem in Terris, Gaudium et Spes, etc.), "necessary for living a genuinely human life," just as life itself is a basic human right.[/quote]

Don John responded:
[quote]Actually [b]the Idea that there is a right to an education[/b] or even that universal education is best [b]has been condemned infallibly as a heresy[/b][/quote]

I posted:
[quote]"At the same time, however, there is a growing awareness of the exalted dignity proper to the human person, since he stands above all things, and his rights and duties are universal and inviolable. Therefore, there must be made available to all men everything necessary for leading a life truly human, such as food, clothing, and shelter; the right to choose a state of life freely and to found a family, [b]the right to education[/b], to employment, to a good reputation, to respect, to appropriate information, to activity in accord with the upright norm of one's own conscience, to protection of privacy and rightful freedom, even in matters religious." Gaudium et Spes[/quote]

Clearly, [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] promotes something which Don John called "heretical."

In respose to the [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] quote, he responded:
[quote]any document which contradicts [Syllabus] is not in keeping with the tradition of the Church and is in Error ( i.e. heresy)[/quote]

There is no question that Don John understands the Syllabus to condemn any "right to education," as his previous post said. So, at least implicitly, he is saying that [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] contradicts the Syllabus.

You said:
[quote]he is faithful to Vatican II.[/quote]

But Don John said:
[quote]Gaudium et Spes is a Pastorial Constitution it is pastorial opinion it is not protected from Error[/quote]

So he believes that [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] can teach error, and, by what has preceded this post, it seems reasonable to conclude that he actually believes [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] erred.

I have also posted:
[quote]"But first We must speak of man's rights. Man has the right to live. He has the right to bodily integrity and to the means necessary for the proper development of life, particularly food, clothing, shelter, medical care, rest, and, finally, the necessary social services. In consequence, he has the right to be looked after in the event of illhealth; disability stemming from his work; widowhood; old age; enforced unemployment; or whenever through no fault of his own he is deprived of the means of livelihood.... [b]He has the natural right to share in the benefits of culture, and hence to receive a good general education, and a technical or professional training consistent with the degree of educational development in his own country. Furthermore, a system must be devised for affording gifted members of society the opportunity of engaging in more advanced studies[/b], with a view to their occupying, as far as possible, positions of responsibility in society in keeping with their natural talent and acquired skill." - Pacem in Terris[/quote]
[quote]"[b]Every human being has a right[/b] to culture, which is the specific mode of a truly human existence to which one gains access through the development of one's intellectual capacities, moral virtues, abilities to relate with other human beings, and talents for creating things which are useful and beautiful. [b]From this flows the necessity of promoting and spreading education, to which every individual has an inalienable right[/b]." - Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith[/quote]

I would say that unless Don John changes his claim that "the Idea that there is a right to an education... has been condemned infallibly as a heresy" (e.g. by reinterpreting what the Syllabus actually means), he is indeed calling these teachings "heretical." (Others have suggested that his understanding of the Syllabus may be wrong. This seems more likely to me, personally.)

Do you see a different possibility?

You wrote:
[quote]Vatican II lines up with the Magisterium from before.  It doesn't contradict anything, just rewords it.[/quote]

I don't believe otherwise. But it certainly appears that Don John does.

Personally, I hope he is not saying what it seems like he is saying. But I haven't yet seen good evidence to the contrary.

[jmjtina]

The guy is a plain pscyho in theory and out. No one kills on his own authority. You can't do what you deem is right on your own when it comes to bombing the world.

SHould we have killed Norma McCorvey before Roe vs. Wade? Should we have killed those abortion doctors who have converted and are some of the biggest pro-life witnesses today? Should they have killed St. Paul before he killed so many Christians?

Should we go to war with the abortion industry? No. It would set back the pro-life cause AND truly be a double standard of being pro-life. It is through peace and prayer......

The Pro-Life movement has not done enough to unite ALL pro-lifers......I mean come on! Look at the National Right to Life voting AGAINST a pro-life law! There is alot of work we need to do and I myself don't pray hard enough. I think that's the only way we can help the mothers and children overcome the lie and illusion of the abortion industry. Through prayer.

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.

Edited January 4, 2005 by jmjtina

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Jan 4 2005, 12:07 AM'] The guy is a plain pscyho in theory and out. No one kills on his own authority. You can't do what you deem is right on your own when it comes to bombing the world.

SHould we have killed Norma McCorvey before Roe vs. Wade? Should we have killed those abortion doctors who have converted and are some of the biggest pro-life witnesses today? Should they have killed St. Paul before he killed so many Christians?

Should we go to war with the abortion industry? No. It would set back the pro-life cause AND truly be a double standard of being pro-life. It is through peace and prayer......

The Pro-Life movement has not done enough to unite ALL pro-lifers......I mean come on! Look at the National Right to Life voting AGAINST a pro-life law! There is alot of work we need to do and I myself don't pray hard enough. I think that's the only way we can help the mothers and children overcome the lie and illusion of the abortion industry. Through prayer.

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem. [/quote]
Who is psycho? Just curious...

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Monoxide' date='Dec 28 2004, 09:58 PM'] There is a man. .............This man lives in todays society [/quote]
the man in theory......

but if his name is Neo and he wears a black coat....I might change my mind....

[Q the Ninja]

cathqat, I think one post is out of context slightly. He said:

[quote]Gaudium et Spes is a Pastorial Constitution it is pastorial opinion it is not protected from Error in the same way [b]as is a Dogmatic statement.[/b][/quote]

This is true. Dogmas are defined. You can disagree with Vatican II's definitions, but the teachings are still infallible.


May I make the suggestion that I think many, many people have gone so far that they no longer realize what it is they disagree on? This may be one case where you're both right (as far as I can tell). Where you're wrong is actually in the fact that you disagree. I suggest that this thread take a break, if I may. I would love to finish it soon, but it seems that it's progressed far beyond what it was about originally.

Just my .02.

[Q the Ninja]

I would like to petition that this thread stay open though, I think it's an important discussion.

[jmjtina]

Q the ninja?!

Kilroy, you have a sibling on phatmass?!

[Q the Ninja]

Hey Flowery's sis.

Edited January 4, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[jmjtina]

Whooooooooooo are you?















:ph34r:

[cathqat]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jan 3 2005, 11:49 PM']What exactly are you calling the root causes of abortion?[/quote]

If you want to know the reasons that women get abortions, they have been studied. We have been discussing them here. Women get abortions because they feel, due to a lack of practical and social resources, that they have no realistic, viable alternative.

I am not saying that anything justifies abortion. I am not arguing in favor of abortion in any way. I work full time in the pro-life movement because I am opposed to abortion and want to support both women and children.

What I am saying is that if you really want to put an end to abortion, arguments and legislation are not enough. We must also work to provide the resources these women so desperately need. It is our responsibility as Christians to support both the women and their children, so that both may live.

And we have certainly not done all that we can do in this regard. Organizations which work to provide practical and social resources to pregnant women are, generally speaking, desperately underfunded and understaffed.

So the idea that we must now resort to violent measures because we have "exhausted all other means" is absurd. We have not exhausted all other means. We have barely even scratched the surface of nonviolent ways to prevent abortion. And if there really are enough of us to succeed in a "just war" scenario, then there are enough of us to fund and staff all those pregnancy resource centers that need our help.

[quote]I'm having a hard time feeling empathy for people who allow others to influence them in such a grave matter.[/quote]

Then I really, sincerely hope you will pray for that empathy.

I have not ever had an abortion. But when I examine my conscience, I know I have sinned in grave matters without facing even a fraction of the pressures many of these women face. I have made so many bad choices in my life, and sometimes for the most trivial reasons imaginable. Knowing that, I believe it takes a real hero to overcome the pressures and isolation these women face. And I believe we should be empowering these women to make life-affirming choices for both themselves and their children. With God's grace and our help, they will believe they can do it.

[cathqat]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jan 3 2005, 11:55 PM']I don't understand why you're explaining or justifying an argument with which you say you don't agree.[/quote]

Explaining and justifying are not the same thing.

I am not arguing in favor of abortion. I am arguing in favor of providing the practical and social resources to women in need.

[quote]I think there's right and wrong ways to address the causes.[/quote]

I do too. We should be providing practical and social support to pregnant women.

[cathqat]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jan 4 2005, 12:22 AM'] This may be one case where you're both right (as far as I can tell). Where you're wrong is actually in the fact that you disagree. [/quote]
I have said, as [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i], [i]Pacem in Terris[/i], the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and other Church teachings say, that human beings have a right to education. Don John interprets the Syllabus to say that is a heresy. I don't see how that is an agreement.

I agree with you that this element is not the central point itself, however.