Irish National Sovereignty

[Noel's angel]

[quote]always tries to limit their victims anyway[/quote]

no, they dont. what about the Omagh bomb? they told the people it was at one end of the main street, so as they would all run to the other end where the bomb actually was.

I cant see Sinn Fein achieving a United Ireland, the DUP is still the largest perty and I cant see many Unionists wanting to give up on their cause.

[quote]Can I not have an opinion?[/quote]

yes, i have NO problem with your posts

[quote]the IRA and DUP still kill each other every once in a while[/quote]

the DUP are a political party who aren't officially affiliated to any paramilitary organisation, it is the UVF etc. who are the terrorists.

i think its great that you have an interest and some knowledge of what you are talking about, but I think that maybe a lot of people don't realise that the IRA aren't these great heros. In fact, Sinn Fein's leader Gerry Adams once said that he could envisage a time when the IRA would no longer exist. Now, if the Sinn Fein leader says that, think of how the majority of ordinary people in Northern Ireland feel about the IRA.

Edited January 8, 2005 by Noel's angel

[Guest Aluigi]

the real heroes are from a century ago. the fenian men and such.

the IRA started as a legitimate cause because there was persecution. most of the time they do warn people where it will be. are you sure it wasn't a mistake when they told it would be at the wrong spot? although, it was done by the "real" IRA which is the broken off faction that simply wants to continue the bloodshed. I sympathize with the original IRA, the one that is now in ceasefire.

sorry, i knew i would mix up one of those abreviations when i said DUP i meant UVF


anyway, I share Gerry Adams sentiments, but don't interpret them exactly the way you do. that there would no longer be a need for an IRA, that the cause would be achieved. no one really wants there to have to be an IRA, if Sinn Fein could bring about a united Ireland it would be awesome. they are starting to have some big success, i know unionists will never give up their cause, but i hope and pray that we won't give up our cause either. within 10 or 20 years it is not unfeasable that Sinn Fein could succeed.

check out the 2001 election results compared to the 1997 ones, i think Sinn Fein is gaining power and it is not that unfeasable
[img]http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/historical/election_1997_2001.gif[/img]

[url="http://www.irelandstory.com"]http://www.irelandstory.com[/url]

They basically just took the west. The DUP got stronger too, but it's polarizing. Within 10 or 20 years I bet it's almost 2 party, DUP vs. Sinn Fein. Maybe 30 or 40 years if we're lucky (and the Irish are always lucky lol) Sinn Fein can take charge.

Edited January 8, 2005 by Aluigi

[Noel's angel]

yes, but, Sinn Feins unwillingness for the IRA decommissioning will probably lose them votes. There are only so many people who will vote for Sinn Fein. They'd have to win most of the votes from the SDLAP and some from Unionist parties to win, and that is unlikely to happen.

BTW, the Omagh bomb thing wasnt a mistake

[Guest Aluigi]

the "real" IRA is pretty out there anyway though. i wouldn't think of considering them "heroes"

the original IRA basically always avoids as much unnecsary bloodshed as possible, they're Catholics and that's basic just-war doctrine. even the real IRA was doing that, until they failed so many times because every time they outright warned where the bomb would be they got caught. that's why that time they sent a misleading wraning, and i 100% disagree with what they did there. the IRA formed to counter the Catholic persecution, and in that sense they were heroes. And they are at a ceasefire illustrating an even more courageous virtue that they know when to stop the fight (the real-IRA doesn't get that).

i hope for a time when the IRA is no longer necessary. I am not 100% convinced that it currently is at that point, but I agree with the ceasefire because the violence is no longer necessary.

[Guest Aluigi]

anyway, the Omagh bomb- horrible tragedy. the Real IRA was gravely wrong for doing it. they said it was gonna be at the courthouse, it was 500 yards from the courthouse.
[quote]    *

      Received by Ulster Television at 14:30
      "There's a bomb, courthouse, Omagh, main street, 500 pounds, explosion 30 minutes."
    *

      Received by the Coleraine office of the 'Samaritans' charity, 14:32
      "Am I through to Omagh? This is a bomb warning. It's going to go off in 30 minutes." [followed possibly by a further piece of information specifying 200 yards from the courthouse].
    *

      Received by Ulster Television at 14:35
      "Bomb, Omagh town, 15 minutes."
[/quote]

It was vague and misleading because when they did accurate ones, they had before, they got diffused. It was wrong of them, they knew it would cause a much much greater risk to bystanders.

i can't say whether they intended that or not, but the police assumed they did because every time they warned before the bomb was diffused.
[quote] "I can come to no other conclusion in that this was absolutely deliberate, we've had success in the past either through intercepting these vehicles before they arrive at their intended destination, or reaching them very soon after they have arrived so that we've been able to disrupt them, and I have no doubt that these people decided to give deliberately vague and misleading warnings to prevent us disrupting the explosive devices. I can come to no conclusion other than that these people intended the bloody murder that resulted from their actions".  - Ronnie Flanaghan, Police [/quote]

But, that's the Omagh bomb. sad sad incident, i can only hope and pray that those who were conscience that the plan would be so devestating repented

this is a good collection of info about it as well as a tribute to all the victims :
[url="http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/omagh/main.html"]http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/irelan...omagh/main.html[/url]
from irishstory.com

we are in agreement regarding the Omagh bomb being a horrible act, and that the Real IRA is pretty messed up.

the Provisional IRA, however, i am still not opposed to. They are at ceasefire and have always been one of the most rational "terrorist" groups i've ever known. they always attempt to keep their casualties down and their targets not be bystanders.

i kinda wish the unionists would just move to england, lol, it'd make it easier. i don't think britain even wants northern ireland anymore, too much trouble with the IRA and the UVF and such. i really really hope Sinn Fein can pull off it's goal, and it isn't impossible. They got the west! just get some more of the east and such. maybe I'll move there and help the cause (politically)

[Guest Aluigi]

i'm most afraid that the Irish Nation is simply going to be reduced to these states:

[img]http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/island_euro_constituencies.gif[/img]

THAT is not Ireland, that is five states in the United States of Europe. :ph34r:

Edited January 8, 2005 by Aluigi

[Noel's angel]

no, the provisionals were the ones who started all the violence, then the Real IRA began to cause they were losing support, people began saying that IRA stood for 'I Ran Away'

[Noel's angel]

there is no way, ireland will give over all power to Europe, EVER

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jan 8 2005, 04:38 PM'] there is no way, ireland will give over all power to Europe, EVER [/quote]
I hope not.. it's at a crossraods... it can either end up as the Maryland of the US of Europe or the Texas. Texas has more state power, even to the point that it has in writing a right to suceed. Maryland gave up its state power more, used to be a Catholic state and such. Which way will Ireland go? Which way will the E.U. go? Ireland must be much more wary of the E.U. than it seems to be now.

[Noel's angel]

i trust the Irish government. there is no way they would give up power to Europe and lose her identity

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jan 8 2005, 08:57 AM'] There are a sizeable number of catholics in the UK who are unionist. In fact, far from the Establisment being anti-catholic. the Education Secretary, not only being a catholic, is a member of Opus Dei. [/quote]
Probably ones BORN in the UK. One of my uncles is one of those traitors.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jan 8 2005, 08:59 AM'] Therefore 94% of people in the Republic are wrong... [/quote]
Its the historical that matters, the POBLACHT NA H EIREANN THIS IS IRELAND. Not 26 here and 6 there.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jan 8 2005, 09:15 AM'] oh! i wasnt talking about you! no, i think u made some good arguments. at least in England, u know a fair bit about whats going on over here [/quote]
And you had a shot at people who didnt know about the war...lol And u make such an ignorant statement, ever heard of the [i]Psy Ops War[/i]??? For those its roughly the equivelent of FOXNEWS but on about a 1000:1 scale.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jan 8 2005, 03:03 PM']
no, they dont. what about the Omagh bomb? they told the people it was at one end of the main street, so as they would all run to the other end where the bomb actually was.

I cant see Sinn Fein achieving a United Ireland, the DUP is still the largest perty and I cant see many Unionists wanting to give up on their cause.



yes, i have NO problem with your posts



the DUP are a political party who aren't officially affiliated to any paramilitary organisation, it is the UVF etc. who are the terrorists.

i think its great that you have an interest and some knowledge of what you are talking about, but I think that maybe a lot of people don't realise that the IRA aren't these great heros. In fact, Sinn Fein's leader Gerry Adams once said that he could envisage a time when the IRA would no longer exist. Now, if the Sinn Fein leader says that, think of how the majority of ordinary people in Northern Ireland feel about the IRA. [/quote]
THAT WAS THE [b]REAL[/b] IRA!!!!!!! The Provos were on ceasefire since 1997.

GOD u know NOTHING for a person that lives there!

[quote]I cant see Sinn Fein achieving a United Ireland, the DUP is still the largest perty and I cant see many Unionists wanting to give up on their cause.[/quote]

Sinn Fein could achieve it, if there wasnt so much division among republican/nationalists. Theres like 4-5 political parties. This goes all the way back to [i]The HON. Bobby Sands MP[/i], where one of the republican opponents refused to step down until the last minute, and then Prisoner Bobby Sands, became The Hon. Bobby Sands MP

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jan 8 2005, 04:03 PM'] yes, but, Sinn Feins unwillingness for the IRA decommissioning will probably lose them votes. There are only so many people who will vote for Sinn Fein. They'd have to win most of the votes from the SDLAP and some from Unionist parties to win, and that is unlikely to happen.

BTW, the Omagh bomb thing wasnt a mistake [/quote]
OY. More knowledge required.

The Decommissioning was NEVER APART of it, the George Mitchell International Body stated that decommissioning was [b]not[/b] a needed precondition for talks. Also why the hell should the IRA have to disarm? The loyalists dont have a very good track record of keeping their men under tight command. The second the IRA gives up all its weapons and has nothing, they will be defenseless against loyalist attacks and bombings, and theres no point having a political process when all your voters have been bombed outta there homes or shot dead by the UDA?UVF/UFF(UVF Disguise)!

SF is the largest nationalist party. DUP is the largest Unionist part.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jan 8 2005, 04:37 PM'] no, the provisionals were the ones who started all the violence, then the Real IRA began to cause they were losing support, people began saying that IRA stood for 'I Ran Away' [/quote]
Context Required!

The IRA did not start the Post-1969 Violence, Gusty Spence did and his loyalist death squads. The RUC gave even more reason, heres a video of John Hume being attacked by an RUC man from behind on a Civil Rights march:

[url="http://irishrepublicanarmy.info/Videos.html"]http://irishrepublicanarmy.info/Videos.html[/url] > DL "Duke Street- The Origin of the Troubles" WMV One.

RIRA have grown in support, there base now is estimated at around 70-80 full-time cells.

[quote]people began saying that IRA stood for 'I Ran Away'[/quote]

That was used by Catholics for the 'Officials' back in 1968-9 when they refused to protect them from loyalist death squads, and the some loyalist groups began to use that for the SF and the IRA when they went on Ceasefire, funny enuf most of those loyalists that used it, are on ceasefire now!

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Jan 8 2005, 11:41 PM'] I hope not.. it's at a crossraods... it can either end up as the Maryland of the US of Europe or the Texas.  Texas has more state power, even to the point that it has in writing a right to suceed.  Maryland gave up its state power more, used to be a Catholic state and such.  Which way will Ireland go?  Which way will the E.U. go?  Ireland must be much more wary of the E.U. than it seems to be now. [/quote]

I think you should get some idea of scale. Ireland is about half the population of London.

I very much doubt that it would be the equialent of Texas. You should bear in mind that the Republic of Ireland, by population, makes up about 1% of the EU, is militarily/politically neutral and a pretty small player on the world stage.

The UK by contrast...

..makes up about 15% of the EU, is one of the biggest countries in the union both in terms of people and money and in fact it has one of the biggest economies in the world in it's own right and is a member of the G8. The UK has a bigger economy than any one single state in the US (it's very close to CA and sometimes trades places), has the world's biggest foreign exchange, is the world's fourth importer (and Ireland's biggest trading partner), has one of the 5 permanent seats on the UN security council, is one of the most potent countries in the world in terms of military firepower, is one of only 2 EU countries with nuclear weapons and, along with Sweden and Denmark, has sole control over it's own currency.

In other indicators, The UK has the world's biggest oil company to look after it's interests in the Middle East. The UK itself is an oil exporter thanks to the North Sea and on top of that, gets free oil to the tune of up to 600,000 barrels a day from the Saudis thanks to us equipping it's Air Force (the "Al Yamana" deal).

The UK and Ireland share a lot in common though. Apart form shared language, there is a lot of shared heritage. Most Britons on the Mainland think highly of the Irish nation.

I'd personally like a union of four countries to form together (England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales) but I think there is too much hatred for that to happen.


[quote]there is no way, ireland will give over all power to Europe, EVER[/quote]

After giving up economic control over itself you have to wonder what is left..

Edited January 9, 2005 by RandomProddy

[Noel's angel]

Oh my goodness, Phatmasser777, u have such an attitude problem. i know more about my country than you will ever know and i DO NOT appreciate being called ignorant, if you have nothing productive to say, dont say anything at all

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Jan 9 2005, 04:47 AM'] Also why the hell should the IRA have to disarm? The loyalists dont have a very good track record of keeping their men under tight command. The second the IRA gives up all its weapons and has nothing, they will be defenseless against loyalist attacks and bombings, and theres no point having a political process when all your voters have been bombed outta there homes or shot dead by the UDA?UVF/UFF(UVF Disguise)! [/quote]
They are terrorists. End of story. It's exactly the same reason the UDA are being forced to disband.

By the way, you think that the IRA have any chance of actually using the guns anymore? If there was a major strike on the mainland by the IRA, all Tony Blair has to do is stand up and say "we are at war with terrorism". You think that the American people will disagree with it? you seriously think the Bush administration will support terrorist acts against it's closest ally after 9/11?

(By the way, it's worth pointing out that the biggest loss of British life in terrorist action was not Omagh or Bloody Friday, but actually 9/11, where we lost 67 people).

Any action now could easily escalate badly. Not that I would condone Israeli-style atacks like launching a hundred Storm Shadows or sending in anti-tank helicopters, but it could happen.

(and, bear in mind, the security services have stopped so many Al-Quaeda attacks recently that it's only a matter of time. Britain is well-versed in anti-terrorism.)

Edited January 9, 2005 by RandomProddy

[Noel's angel]

*applause*