spathariossa Posted January 17, 2005 Author Posted January 17, 2005 [quote name='myduwigd' date='Jan 17 2005, 01:08 AM'] i thought that the DSM IV called GID a mental illness? [/quote] Yeah, legally I'm mentally ill. But that doesn't make me mentally unstable. Having a disorder with certain verifiable symptoms and being unstable are two totally separate things. Just talking to me you'd never know I'm not a normal girl. Looking at the way I behave, you wouldn't be able to tell. Checking my appearance would get you nowhere. But because I have XY chromosomes I must be insane for being myself.
cmotherofpirl Posted January 17, 2005 Posted January 17, 2005 Yep there is a big difference between mental illness and mental instability.
Socrates Posted January 18, 2005 Posted January 18, 2005 (edited) [quote name='jezic' date='Jan 14 2005, 10:35 PM'] the only thing i might suggest also, if you really want to be in a religious order start a new one. If the old ones are going to accept you then trust in God and go that extra step. I can't see how the church can condemn something like this though. it is not even giving people a chance. It is sad we are divided on earth like this by the work on the devil. We should pray for an end to this. God your will here be done. [/quote] One does not have to do be a priest or nun to be holy. ONe must also be obedient to the Church. I know I'll be called insensitive and a bigot, but the Bible clearly condemns men dressing as women. I realize that this is a struggle for those afflicted by this disordered inclination, but living this "lifestyle" is contrary to the Church and does not honor Christ nor one's self. If God made one a man (if he clearly has a mann's anatomy), he must accept this, and not pretend to be a woman. Keep up the good fight, pray hard, and do not despair. God bless all. Edited January 18, 2005 by Socrates
hyperdulia again Posted January 18, 2005 Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jan 17 2005, 05:39 PM'] Yep there is a big difference between mental illness and mental instability. [/quote] Is this some of your typical sarcasm, or are you being serious. There actually is a huge diff. between mental illness and mental instability, also last I checked people here weren't very fond of Medical Associations that don't have "Catholic" in front of them. "Cause Lord know Holy Church can define as dogma what does or does not constitute mental illness.
spathariossa Posted January 18, 2005 Author Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 17 2005, 11:25 PM'] One does not have to do be a priest or nun to be holy. ONe must also be obedient to the Church. I know I'll be called insensitive and a bigot, but the Bible clearly condemns men dressing as women. I realize that this is a struggle for those afflicted by this disordered inclination, but living this "lifestyle" is contrary to the Church and does not honor Christ nor one's self. If God made one a man (if he clearly has a mann's anatomy), he must accept this, and not pretend to be a woman. Keep up the good fight, pray hard, and do not despair. God bless all. [/quote] First of all, there is no evidence that God made me male specifically. Ever heard of intersex conditions? Just because I am not anatomically intersex does not rule out the possibility that my brain is intersexed, or female, or in some other way not male. Furthermore, I am obedient to the Church. My being a girl is NOT contrary to the Church. If you'd care to look at the document you'd see that the Church actually allows surgery for such a disorder. That is far from a contrast. Finally, I'm not pretending. I was pretending to be a boy. I was pretending that my life was okay. I was pretending that I didn't take loaded guns and put them in my mouth at night just to asuage the inner torment I was feeling. That was all pretending. Now, I'm being myself. I don't think you are a bigot I just think you're totally ignorant on this issue. You've clearly never studied it or researched it and you clearly have no inkling of gender issues in general. A cursory examination of the book of Deuteronomy should never be the policy for a complex issue such as this one.
spathariossa Posted January 18, 2005 Author Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 17 2005, 11:30 PM'] Is this some of your typical sarcasm, or are you being serious. There actually is a huge diff. between mental illness and mental instability, also last I checked people here weren't very fond of Medical Associations that don't have "Catholic" in front of them. "Cause Lord know Holy Church can define as dogma what does or does not constitute mental illness. [/quote] I thought she was being kind and sympathetic. Best not to jump to conclusions. You might get stuck there. And if it is an island then you'll need a boat to get back.
hyperdulia again Posted January 18, 2005 Posted January 18, 2005 Socrates, your post does not seem to me to clearly reflect the teaching of the Church. I would appreciate some doctrinal statement by the Church on this--it would seem to me that you deny the licitness of sex-changes, the Church seems to allow them under the proper conditions..
hyperdulia again Posted January 18, 2005 Posted January 18, 2005 nobody knows what sex they are until they have their chromosomes checked.
spathariossa Posted January 18, 2005 Author Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 17 2005, 11:32 PM'] Socrates, your post does not seem to me to clearly reflect the teaching of the Church. I would appreciate some doctrinal statement by the Church on this--it would seem to me that you deny the licitness of sex-changes, the Church seems to allow them under the proper conditions.. [/quote] Don't call it a sex change. That terminology smells of elderberries. I hate oversimplified BS like that.
spathariossa Posted January 18, 2005 Author Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 17 2005, 11:33 PM'] nobody knows what sex they are until they have their chromosomes checked. [/quote] Not even then. Jamie Lee Curtis is XY - she has androgen insensitivity disorder. According to this definition she is male but she never knew.
hyperdulia again Posted January 18, 2005 Posted January 18, 2005 fine sex reassignment surgery...sex-change is easier to type lol
Socrates Posted January 18, 2005 Posted January 18, 2005 What is the document under question, by which the Church supposedly allows such operations? I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I've never heard such a thing, and cannot find it quoted in this thread. I always understood such "surgery" to be gravely sinful mutilation of the human body. A man does not in reality become a woman after this unnatural procedure, but is merely a castrated, mutilated man. The very thought of such an "operation" gives me the horrors! I would never inflict it on my worst enemy. (I even feel kind of sorry for castrated animals, somehow.)
spathariossa Posted January 18, 2005 Author Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 17 2005, 11:42 PM'] What is the document under question, by which the Church supposedly allows such operations? I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I've never heard such a thing, and cannot find it quoted in this thread. I always understood such "surgery" to be gravely sinful mutilation of the human body. A man does not in reality become a woman after this unnatural procedure, but is merely a castrated, mutilated man. The very thought of such an "operation" gives me the horrors! I would never inflict it on my worst enemy. (I even feel kind of sorry for castrated animals, somehow.) [/quote] See? You're a man. That is terrible to you. However, ask any girl if she woke up tomorrow with male genitals if she would want them removed. Read the very first post. It is a news article about a document circulated amongst the bishops. Read the whole thing. It says that surgery is allowable under certain conditions.
hyperdulia again Posted January 18, 2005 Posted January 18, 2005 See, I feel about penises how you feel about srs, lol. I have never seen the document, I'm not sure how Church Teaching will affect my course of action (regarding surgery, not chastity), but still I'd like to be aware. The article on the first page of this thread is the only thing I've ever red that seems to be Church Teaching as opposed to the opinion of some Catholic.
spathariossa Posted January 18, 2005 Author Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 17 2005, 11:42 PM'] What is the document under question, by which the Church supposedly allows such operations? I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I've never heard such a thing, and cannot find it quoted in this thread. I always understood such "surgery" to be gravely sinful mutilation of the human body. A man does not in reality become a woman after this unnatural procedure, but is merely a castrated, mutilated man. The very thought of such an "operation" gives me the horrors! I would never inflict it on my worst enemy. (I even feel kind of sorry for castrated animals, somehow.) [/quote] Oh and just one other thing - your perception of us as men comes from stereotypes perpetuated by the media. If you met me you would never even imagine that I was anything but a 21 year old college girl. I don't have a male physique, I don't have a male face, I don't have a male bone structure, and I don't have a male sounding voice. In fact, when I try to sound like a boy people laugh at me. Just take a woman you met very recently - a biological woman. Now imagine for a second that this woman has a penis. How do you feel about the surgery now?
Tink Posted January 18, 2005 Posted January 18, 2005 I completely understand your mentality on this one, though I don't exactly agree with it. Know that my prayers are with you, Hyper and Spathariossa and whomever else is in this position. Transsexuality, gender confusion, whatever you may call it, is a difficult cross to bear. But it is a burden and an urge that doesn't need to be acted upon. I mean no offense to either of you, as I'm sure it's much more difficult than people make it sound, but I must agree with the majority of Socrates' post in saying that if you are created to be a certain gender, any inclinations to be otherwise need not be acted upon. You can act like a female and be as feminine as you like, but to be compelled to deny the God-given gift of sexuality through the act of sex-reassignment surgery is devaluing your individuality and God's wisdom. For example, I don't always feel comfortable or at ease being a Catholic, and sometimes I honestly believe that I would make a far better Protestant or Wiccan, but for goodness sake, that doesn't make me change my religion- I know God created me to be one of His children, and no matter how uncomfortable, irritating, or unnatural it may feel, that is how I will proceed to live.
hyperdulia again Posted January 18, 2005 Posted January 18, 2005 Tink, I don't have any plans to leave the Church--EVER. And I'd make a lousy Wiccan, 'cause I'm Catholic. lol
spathariossa Posted January 18, 2005 Author Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='Tink' date='Jan 17 2005, 11:49 PM'] I completely understand your mentality on this one, though I don't exactly agree with it. Know that my prayers are with you, Hyper and Spathariossa and whomever else is in this position. Transsexuality, gender confusion, whatever you may call it, is a difficult cross to bear. But it is a burden and an urge that doesn't need to be acted upon. I mean no offense to either of you, as I'm sure it's much more difficult than people make it sound, but I must agree with the majority of Socrates' post in saying that if you are created to be a certain gender, any inclinations to be otherwise need not be acted upon. You can act like a female and be as feminine as you like, but to be compelled to deny the God-given gift of sexuality through the act of sex-reassignment surgery is devaluing your individuality and God's wisdom. For example, I don't always feel comfortable or at ease being a Catholic, and sometimes I honestly believe that I would make a far better Protestant or Wiccan, but for goodness sake, that doesn't make me change my religion- I know God created me to be one of His children, and no matter how uncomfortable, irritating, or unnatural it may feel, that is how I will proceed to live. [/quote] You're very presumptuous. You aren't presumptuous for disagreeing with me, although I could make that case; but rather, you presume to know God's intent. How do you know God didn't give me a girl brain and a guy body intentionally to bring me closer to the Church than I might otherwise have been, or to give me compassion, or to teach me some lesson? How do you know he didn't intend all along for me to transition? How do you know he didn't put me in this time and this place and this situation so that I would do exactly what I'm doing? You can't know that. This God made you a boy nonsense is exactly that - nonsense. How do you define male and female? There are women who are XY, men who are XXY, people born with ambiguous genitals. Why not ambiguous brains? Why not differently gendered brains? Do you have any clue how many possible disorders there are for a child that are determined pre-natally? You can't know that I was made male by God anymore than you could know what God thinks of my life.
Tink Posted January 18, 2005 Posted January 18, 2005 Well, then it is the same to say that homosexuals may act upon their desires because it could have been God's intent. God could have planned for them to suffer for their sexual preference, and be brought closer to Him through it. How are we to say that they don't have ambiguous brains as well? Errrm, I don't think so.
hyperdulia again Posted January 18, 2005 Posted January 18, 2005 It is certainly not Church teaching that peopl born wit the genitals of both sexes should not "act on their intent" whatever that means.
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