Guest chi rho Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 ok so i am in school and we had this debate about homosexuality. i didn't know but people beilieve that some people are born homosexual and i was like "umm no they choose to be homosexual." of course they told me some evidence and the evidence that they brought to me just didn't help at all. i don't understand how someone is born homosexual. from a religious point of view of course God didn't creat humans to be homosexual, thats why he created a Adam and Eve, a man and a women, not a man and man, and women and women. so what do yall think? i wanna hear other peoples view on this topic. And what is the evidence that supports this theory of homosexuals being born homosexual's?
jezic Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 honestly i don't know that humans can say what God is doing with people today. It might be that some of them are. It might be hard coded into people's genes. I don't think that we really know for sure. The important part is God created them and we need to respect that. Honestly i still like people that make that choice. They are still children of God. That doesn't change. I just ask them to abide by the same rules that heterosexual couples are supposed to. Like no sex before marriage and denying life in any form is a mortal sin. If they abide by those rules then personally i think they are fine. Some people really try to live virtuous lives. Some of those people are gay. it doesn't matter. Living a godly life and following the commands of Christ is what counts.
ironmonk Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Sexual attraction is a learned response. Here is what the Catholic Medical Association has to say about it.... [url="http://www.moraltruth.com/mtbbs/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51"]http://www.moraltruth.com/mtbbs/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51[/url] God Bless, ironmonk
Socrates Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 (edited) Despite what the "Gay Rights" movement says, there is no evidence that anyone is born homosexual. If homosexualtiy were genetic, sets of identical twins would always have the same "orientation." But there are many cases of identical twins having different sexual orientation. Most homosexuals probably don't choose to have homsexual attractions, but it is a psychological disorder, not someting pre-determined at birth. Edited January 21, 2005 by Socrates
jezic Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 i have never understood how anyone can say that. (people aren't born gay) that doesn't mean it is possible they aren't. I also must mention i prolly don't know. I have never met anyone outside ND that is gay. Living in small town ND we are really sheltered. I only know 1 gay person and i know many people. The one i do know isn't from ND anyway. It seems like a conflict from the outside world.
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Homosexuality isn't genetic because of the identical twin situation. I know there is more that you're born with than just genetics, but sexual preferences aren't set in stone at birth (actually, you'd think that everyone would be born heterosexual because of the simplicity of a child). Saying a baby is going to grow up to be homosexual is like saying that his favorite food will be pizza or he'll like rock music as opposed to country music.
ironmonk Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Jan 21 2005, 04:27 PM'] Sexual attraction is a learned response. Here is what the Catholic Medical Association has to say about it.... [url="http://www.moraltruth.com/mtbbs/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51"]http://www.moraltruth.com/mtbbs/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51[/url] God Bless, ironmonk [/quote] CMA goes into great detail about after studying the issue for many years. God Bless, ironmonk
jezic Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Jan 21 2005, 02:47 PM'] CMA goes into great detail about after studying the issue for many years. God Bless, ironmonk [/quote] Good call. I like the research. I am still hesitant to say one way or the other(i don't like to tell God what he did unless he told first) but this makes a strong case for it being a learned response and i am not even finished with it yet. Though it is strange because it could be unlearned in the same way. If someone was born homosexual they could become hetero which would makes studies very difficult to prove. My guess it that it is outside pressures more than genetics. prolly not genetic at all.
spathariossa Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Homosexuals are born homosexual. The behavioral response theory is based on outdated research. The CMA is neither Catholic nor medical.
ironmonk Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Jan 21 2005, 04:56 PM'] Good call. I like the research. I am still hesitant to say one way or the other(i don't like to tell God what he did unless he told first) but this makes a strong case for it being a learned response and i am not even finished with it yet. Though it is strange because it could be unlearned in the same way. If someone was born homosexual they could become hetero which would makes studies very difficult to prove. My guess it that it is outside pressures more than genetics. prolly not genetic at all. [/quote] That's why the Church calls it a disorder. Disorders are learned. Think about it... If you like red heads, blonds, or brunettes... it's all something you learn. The guy who started the whole ssa (same sex attraction) being genetic based his theory of an enlarge hypothalmus (sp?) on 12 dead people and a few of those where [i]thought [/i]to have the ssa disorder because a couple died from AIDS. This doctor had the ssa disorder. This was not a scientific study at all. There are those that want people to believe it's genetic so that they can say it's not their fault. It may not be their fault even though it's not genetic. It is something learned, something learned can be unlearned. Everything we see and hear growing up programs us. We can be unprogrammed... it just takes time and effort. People today want to be handed things and take responsibility for their actions. My theory why it seems like people with ssa are coming out of the woodwork is because of things like MTV's real world... Revenge of the Nerds... etc... Hollywood trying to make ssa commonplace and accepted as ok, just as they did with pre-marital sex. Censorship is needed. Censorship is good when morals are concerned. Censorship can be bad when criticism of governments are concerned, provided that those doing the speaking are telling the truth and not the typical democrat lies about republicans. God Bless, ironmonk
spathariossa Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Jan 21 2005, 03:12 PM'] That's why the Church calls it a disorder. Disorders are learned. Think about it... If you like red heads, blonds, or brunettes... it's all something you learn. The guy who started the whole ssa (same sex attraction) being genetic based his theory of an enlarge hypothalmus (sp?) on 12 dead people and a few of those where [i]thought [/i]to have the ssa disorder because a couple died from AIDS. This doctor had the ssa disorder. This was not a scientific study at all. There are those that want people to believe it's genetic so that they can say it's not their fault. It may not be their fault even though it's not genetic. It is something learned, something learned can be unlearned. Everything we see and hear growing up programs us. We can be unprogrammed... it just takes time and effort. People today want to be handed things and take responsibility for their actions. My theory why it seems like people with ssa are coming out of the woodwork is because of things like MTV's real world... Revenge of the Nerds... etc... Hollywood trying to make ssa commonplace and accepted as ok, just as they did with pre-marital sex. Censorship is needed. Censorship is good when morals are concerned. Censorship can be bad when criticism of governments are concerned, provided that those doing the speaking are telling the truth and not the typical democrat lies about republicans. God Bless, ironmonk [/quote] See that's just it. It cannot be unlearned. The christian programs that attempt to de-program homosexuals have an incredibly dismal success rate. It just doesn't happen and when it does the "cured" homosexuals usually revert back to their original ways. Two of the founders of one of these protestant groups eventually left the group and became homosexual partners. Now, I'm not saying that homosexual behavior is inevitable. However, the SSA certainly isn't learned. If it were learned then there would be overarching themes connecting the experiences of those suffering from SSA. This simply doesn't exist. Homosexuals come from every socio-economic background and every walk of life. It doesn't have to be genetic in order to be nascent.
Socrates Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 (edited) There are indeed overarching themes in the early lives of homosexuals that are quite well-documented. These include such things as weak or absent fathers, lack of normal bonding experiences with the same sex in childhood, sexual abuse, and a number of other things. There is a wealth of literature and research on this topic, and does not just come from the website Max provided. The psychological roots of "SSA" go very deep in the psyche, and is not easily changed, but there are successful cases of poeple changing their orientation (some have even said so on this site). We do people with this disorder a disservice by telling them homosexuals are "born that way" and cannot ever change. Edited January 21, 2005 by Socrates
ironmonk Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 (edited) [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 21 2005, 05:16 PM'] See that's just it. It cannot be unlearned. The christian programs that attempt to de-program homosexuals have an incredibly dismal success rate. It just doesn't happen and when it does the "cured" homosexuals usually revert back to their original ways. Two of the founders of one of these protestant groups eventually left the group and became homosexual partners. Now, I'm not saying that homosexual behavior is inevitable. However, the SSA certainly isn't learned. If it were learned then there would be overarching themes connecting the experiences of those suffering from SSA. This simply doesn't exist. Homosexuals come from every socio-economic background and every walk of life. It doesn't have to be genetic in order to be nascent. [/quote] Sorry, but you are mistaken. Anything can be unlearned... the first step in unlearning is the desire for correction. Without the desire for correction, all efforts will be futile. Also, reliance on God... With God all things are possible, and if someone does not believe that then they have very little faith. Please read the above article. God Bless, ironmonk Edited January 21, 2005 by ironmonk
jezic Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 See i think part of the problem there is that the people wanted them to change. THat really isn't fair to do to someone. Gay people are people. THat doesn't change when they are gay. My premise is that they need to live Godly lives and then who cares if they are gay or not because they aren't going to go out and do stupid things with every guy they find. They wouldn't do that at all. You don't have to fix the disorder. There might not be one. Just fix thier attitude about stuff like sex. No i am not picking on gay people. i would do the same thing to straight ones as well. We are [u][b]all[/b][/u] called to live a life of giving of ourselves and sacrificing for others and following God's commands. I don't think he ever commanded people not to be gay. He just said live a life that is chaste and virtuous.
spathariossa Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 You're both completely wrong. Modern scholarship shows that the "sissy boy" studies of the 1960's and 1970's don't correlate to adult homosexuality at all. The truth is that people who have those experiences as children only have negligibly higher rates of homosexuality. It cannot reasonably be seen as a predictor for SSA. I'm so tired of people taking flawed research from people like John Money and holding it up as gospel truth. Also - it cannot be unlearned. This is a total myth. It can be repressed but not unlearned. Finally, the Catholic church holds no teaching one way or the other on the issue. I want to make it clear that the CMA has nothing to do with the Catholic church and furthermore the Church does not teach or advise that one attempt to "cure" homosexuals.
spathariossa Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Jan 21 2005, 03:32 PM'] See i think part of the problem there is that the people wanted them to change. THat really isn't fair to do to someone. Gay people are people. THat doesn't change when they are gay. My premise is that they need to live Godly lives and then who cares if they are gay or not because they aren't going to go out and do stupid things with every guy they find. They wouldn't do that at all. You don't have to fix the disorder. There might not be one. Just fix thier attitude about stuff like sex. No i am not picking on gay people. i would do the same thing to straight ones as well. We are [u][b]all[/b][/u] called to live a life of giving of ourselves and sacrificing for others and following God's commands. I don't think he ever commanded people not to be gay. He just said live a life that is chaste and virtuous. [/quote] Then why are you concerned whether it is born or learned?
jezic Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 NOw that i think about it more i am not really. It is something i think about like almost everything else with anything.
Sojourner Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 For more recent information, check out [url="http://narth.com/docs/throckarticle.html"]this[/url] article. A relevant quote: "My literature review contradicts the policies of major mental health organizations because it suggests that sexual orientation, once thought to be an unchanging sexual trait, is actually quite flexible for many people, changing as a result of therapy for some, ministry for others and spontaneously for still others."
crusader1234 Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 I'm going to leave the debating homosexuality to Ironmonk and Spath, but I just figured out that even if people are born homosexual (you guys can debate that), its not God's creation. People have not been, and will never be, born perfect since the fall. This is the result of original sin. Humans are born with sin, and it is within human nature to be tempted to sin thruought life. It is wrong to think that people are born perfect. God doesn't create physiological and psychological disorders, humans are responsible for that.
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