Socrates Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 21 2005, 03:32 PM'] You're both completely wrong. Modern scholarship shows that the "sissy boy" studies of the 1960's and 1970's don't correlate to adult homosexuality at all. The truth is that people who have those experiences as children only have negligibly higher rates of homosexuality. It cannot reasonably be seen as a predictor for SSA. I'm so tired of people taking flawed research from people like John Money and holding it up as gospel truth. Also - it cannot be unlearned. This is a total myth. It can be repressed but not unlearned. Finally, the Catholic church holds no teaching one way or the other on the issue. I want to make it clear that the CMA has nothing to do with the Catholic church and furthermore the Church does not teach or advise that one attempt to "cure" homosexuals. [/quote] What are your sources and how are they more "Catholic" than the ones which contradict your own opinions? There is a well-established connection between boys lacking a strong father figure to relate to and homosexuality. Thus the great increase in homosexuality in today's world in which many grew up with weak or absent fathers. Much of "mainstream" psychological literature plays this down, because of pressure from the now-powerful "gay" political lobby, for whom homosexuality being a fixed biological characteristic is part of their propoganda. Stop pretending politically correct positions on this issue are somehow more "Catholic" than those which you disagree with!
Joseph Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 It may very well be possible that a person could be born with a tendency to develop a same-sex attraction more so than others, but others are born with a tendency to become easily addicted to alcohol., and so on. A tendency does not mean that the person will be a homosexual, just that it may become an issue. It's also possible that the environment a person grows up in may contribute to the influence of this tendency. I'm just throwing out a possible hypothesis; I'm not saying any of this is true. In my opinion, I think it is a cross that certain people are presented with to bear. While some are tempted by homosexuality, others have to struggle with different sins. We all have to overcome some type of temptation, some much more difficult than others.
jezic Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote]some much more than others.[/quote] Each person is given what they can carry. I think that is from a scripture verse somewhere. i do agree that we are all called to live a good life though.
crusader1234 Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote] I know God will not give me anything I can't handle. I just wish he didn't trust me so much. ---Mother Teresa [/quote]
jezic Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 I like that. Awesome saying. (i know other people have said something with the same effect before.)
cmotherofpirl Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 There is no credible scientific evidence that anyone is born a homosexual.
Pennypacker11 Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Not having studied the psychology a great deal, I can't really comment much on whether homosexuality is something someone is born w/ or something that someone becomes through experiences, generally in their youth. However, I think that one important thing to note is that homosexuality is not a [i]mere[/i]choice made by someone; it is much much deeper (again, the actual cause of it, I do not know). I have several gay friends and all of them struggled deeply with the realization that they are gay (they lamented that they can't get married in a Catholic Church, that they can't have children, etc). Having these friends, and talking to others, has taught me that [i]for the vast majority[/i] of homosexuals, they do not choose their orientation (and in fact, when I think about it (and I think when all of us heterosexuals do) I never really [i]choose[i/] to be attracted to women; I just am). So, I think that it is a distortion of reality when people argue that homosexualtiy is a mere choice and it gets us no further to uncovering the true cause behind it.
Apotheoun Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 No one is born a "homosexual," because the homosexual inclination is not an ontological reality; instead, it is a relative absence of the good in the will of the creature. Like all other forms of concupiscence it is objectively disordered and is to be overcome by the power of God's grace. God bless, Todd
cmotherofpirl Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Attraction may not be a choice, but behavior always is.
Apotheoun Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jan 21 2005, 02:44 PM'] Attraction may not be a choice, but behavior always is. [/quote] This disordered attraction is a result of the fall of man from grace; therefore, it is not a natural part of the constitution of the human person. Moreover, if this disordered inclination is acted upon it is always and intrinsically gravely immoral. God bless, Todd
cmotherofpirl Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Sin is not a natural part of the human person either.
Apotheoun Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jan 21 2005, 02:49 PM'] Sin is not a natural part of the human person either. [/quote] Correct. Neither concupiscence nor sin are natural to man.
crusader1234 Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Death, suffering, and disease all come from Original Sin though I thought...
spathariossa Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 21 2005, 03:54 PM'] What are your sources and how are they more "Catholic" than the ones which contradict your own opinions? There is a well-established connection between boys lacking a strong father figure to relate to and homosexuality. Thus the great increase in homosexuality in today's world in which many grew up with weak or absent fathers. Much of "mainstream" psychological literature plays this down, because of pressure from the now-powerful "gay" political lobby, for whom homosexuality being a fixed biological characteristic is part of their propoganda. Stop pretending politically correct positions on this issue are somehow more "Catholic" than those which you disagree with! [/quote] A) I didn't say my sources were Catholic I just wanted everyone to be clear that yours are just as much opinion and speculation as mine according to the Church. B) You think modern sources are wrong because of a powerful gay lobby? Did it ever occur to you that the Catholic Medical Association might be biased? Did it ever occur to you that the psychiatric studies of 30 years ago might be biased or flawed? Give me a break. All sources have bias. You just pretend that yours somehow represent an objective truth that doesn't exist.
cmotherofpirl Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Some sources are more objective than others. You must understand the basic philosophical assumptions underlying any study
ironmonk Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Jan 21 2005, 05:32 PM'] You don't have to fix the disorder. There might not be one. Just fix thier attitude about stuff like sex. [/quote] That is the disorder... the attitude. There are many levels to the disorder. There are many deep rooted issues with this disorder. It can be corrected. It takes a lot of time and effort. God Bless, ironmonk
jezic Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 21 2005, 04:47 PM'] This disordered attraction [/quote] i understand your position. I agree with you i just wouldn't call it disordered. It doesn't seem polite. I wouldn't like being called disordered because of one choice. I agree that it is not natural, but disordered just kinda pushes people away.
Guest Aluigi Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Apotheon's all about correct theological terminology though, and people should read his posts as such. When they do, his posts are quite edifying. Even when people don't then when it's not a controversial issue they're also edifying. But anyway, he is correct. Anyway, there are always common experiences between people with homosexual attraction. That's part of what the CMA has documented. Is that a coincidence? Probably not. Is it also possible that someone is born more inclined towards that? perhaps. The Church does not teach that this is not a psychological disorder that people are born with. It would not make it an ontological reality intrinsic to the person anymore than being born with cancer makes cancer somehow ontologically intrinsic to the person. All you really need to know is that people that struggle with it ought to be chaste (EVERYONE ought to be chaste). That means no sex outside of marriage, marriage means man and woman. Thus so long as there is no attraction to the opposite sex chastity means celibacy. I don't think people should criticize those that do get psychological help. I also don't think people should criticize those that decide not to. People that do offer psychological help need to recognize that not everyone will be able to change. The CMA tends to see that people that are involved longer in the lifestyle and such are the least able to change, but who knows. NARTH says that 2/3 of homosexuals are not open to healthy change to attraction to the opposite sex (to change them would become unhealthy repression). 1/3 can change to be attracted to the opposite sex, 1/3 simply loose all sexual attraction, and 1/3 retain same sex attraction. It's on an individual case by case basis. Chastity is the key, everything else is secondary. If changing helps them to be more chaste, then they should change. If changing them is going to push them into unhealthy repression that simply causes seething anger and secret sexual acts hidden from the world around them, that is quite unhealthy and should never be supported. It's better that they struggle with the temptation, admit it, and follow chastity than they say it's all better and keep it all inside. Treatment has to be aware of that. There are good psychologists who really are quite good at that and will not atttempt to change people if it would make them worse, I met one who was assosiated with Courage and the CMA once. [url="http://www.couragerc.net"]http://www.couragerc.net[/url]
cmotherofpirl Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 (edited) Dis-ordered simply means point in the wrong direction, the affections are to the same sex instead of the opposite. This is the way the Church uses it. Edited January 21, 2005 by cmotherofpirl
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