Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 22 2005, 06:51 PM'] Caring for someone's feelings isn't PC the last time I checked. [/quote] Telling a man the truth is compassionate, while lying to him in order to minimize the danger associated with embracing a concupiscent desire as an identifying personal characteristic simply harms him.
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 23 2005, 12:40 AM'] Telling a man the truth is compassionate, while lying to him in order to minimize the danger associated with embracing a concupiscent desire as an identifying personal characteristic simply harms him. [/quote] I don't recall advocating the latter course of action. But there are different methods of telling somebody something.
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 22 2005, 10:44 PM'] I don't recall advocating the latter course of action. But there are different methods of telling somebody something. [/quote] Yes, there are different methods, and my approach is to try and explain the doctrine of the Church as clearly as possible. In other words, I avoid equivocal language in order to be sure that I don't contribute to a person embracing a negation as if it could be an identifying characteristic of his personality. God bless, Todd
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 23 2005, 12:49 AM'] Yes, there are different methods, and my approach is to try and explain the doctrine of the Church as clearly as possible. In other words, I avoid equivocal language in order to be sure that I don't contribute to a person embracing a negation as if it could be an identifying characteristic of his personality. God bless, Todd [/quote] In other words you avoid all subtlety and beat them over the head with the concept like it's a blunt instrument. See? Phrasing can mean the difference between being complimentary and insulting. Edited January 23, 2005 by spathariossa
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 22 2005, 10:51 PM'] In other words you avoid all subtlety and beat them over the head with the concept like it's a blunt instrument. See? Phrasing can mean the difference between being complimentary and insulting. [/quote] If equivocation is subtlety, then no, I'm not subtle. God bless, Todd
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 23 2005, 01:03 AM'] If equivocation is subtlety, then no, I'm not subtle. God bless, Todd [/quote] You can be sympathetic without being equivocal. I don't tell people that an active homosexual lifestyle is right but neither do I address them in a way that they might feel belittling.
jezic Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 22 2005, 07:24 PM'] A moral disorder is not a gift from God! It may be an evil that God allows to exist, but it is not something God positively causes. The Church specifically teaches that homosexual attraction is intrinsically disordered and is not something neutral or benign. This "path from God" stuff is contrary to Catholic theology. God does not make homosexuals any more than he makes serial killers, rapists, zoophiles, or pedophiles! [/quote] Gift might have been the wrong word to be understood as i meant it. Path from God i snot contrary to Catholic teaching, it is a metaphor for life. You life could be called a journey or a path or almost anything else. It establishes a comparison to something else besides life. Humans cannot know the mind of God so you would not know what he created. But yes he does make them. Each of those listed are people. He doesn't make their choices, but he does make the people. The church does teach that. I don't think they ever say homosexual attraction is disordered. I don't know if they can. Homosexual acts are. I agree with that. The things that i know the church has defined as intrinsically disordered are abortion and gay sex. Other than that i have heard no church scholar condemn the attraction. Now this thread is getting really negative. Where did the positive conversation go. Where did Christ go? Why do people have to fight? (you might not call it fighting but the words were getting sharp) i wouldn't be terribly surprised if this is locked soon to stop all the negativity. You don't have to share the same opinion to get along.
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Jan 23 2005, 01:06 AM'] Gift might have been the wrong word to be understood as i meant it. Path from God i snot contrary to Catholic teaching, it is a metaphor for life. You life could be called a journey or a path or almost anything else. It establishes a comparison to something else besides life. Humans cannot know the mind of God so you would not know what he created. But yes he does make them. Each of those listed are people. He doesn't make their choices, but he does make the people. The church does teach that. I don't think they ever say homosexual attraction is disordered. I don't know if they can. Homosexual acts are. I agree with that. The things that i know the church has defined as intrinsically disordered are abortion and gay sex. Other than that i have heard no church scholar condemn the attraction. Now this thread is getting really negative. Where did the positive conversation go. Where did Christ go? Why do people have to fight? (you might not call it fighting but the words were getting sharp) i wouldn't be terribly surprised if this is locked soon to stop all the negativity. You don't have to share the same opinion to get along. [/quote] The thread might get locked? Praise God.
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 spathariossa, I simply do not agree with you on this issue. I do not believe that telling a man that he should not identify himself with a concupiscent desire is in any way "mean spirited" or lacking in compassion. God bless, Todd
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 22 2005, 11:07 PM'] The thread might get locked? Praise God. [/quote] That's up to the moderators.
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 23 2005, 01:09 AM'] spathariossa, I simply do not agree with you on this issue. I do not believe that telling a man that he should not identify himself with a concupiscent desire is in any way "mean spirited" or lacking in compassion. God bless, Todd [/quote] I agree with this statement. I disagree with the ways in which it often plays out. And not even specifically with you. Edit: Ugh...that sounded conciliatory. Ummm...hmmm. Look mods! I just called Apotheoun a heretic! Edited January 23, 2005 by spathariossa
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Jan 22 2005, 11:06 PM']The church does teach that. I don't think they ever say homosexual attraction is disordered. I don't know if they can. . . . [/quote] That is precisely what the Church teaches in the CDF Instruction [u]Homosexualitatis Problema[/u] (no. 3). The homosexual inclination, i.e., the volitional desire for sexual intimacy with a person of the same sex, is obectively disordered, and as the CDF puts it, the homosexual inclination ". . . is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." [CDF Instruction [u]Homosexualitatis Problema[/u], no. 3] Moreover, the CDF has said that this concupiscent inclination cannot be called "benign" or "neutral," because it is objectively disordered. God bless, Todd
jezic Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 then i accept the correction. I don't understand how they can say that, but it might not be for me to know. What about the people that have a homosexual attraction but know that any acts are evil so they just live a celibate life? How is that intrinsically disordered?
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Jan 23 2005, 01:20 AM'] then i accept the correction. I don't understand how they can say that, but it might not be for me to know. What about the people that have a homosexual attraction but know that any acts are evil so they just live a celibate life? How is that intrinsically disordered? [/quote] They aren't disordered. The attraction is. So they aren't wrong for living a celibate life - that is admirable. But the attraction is disordered even if they can't control it.
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Jan 22 2005, 11:20 PM'] What about the people that have a homosexual attraction but know that any acts are evil so they just live a celibate life? [/quote] They are to overcome that attraction through the power of God's grace. But what they must not do is identify themselves with the disorder afflicting them. Everyone who is not married is by definition celibate, and must be chaste. God bless, Todd
jezic Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 that doesn't make sense to me. I can see why one would make that argument and why it is true, but it doesn't make sense at all.
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Jan 23 2005, 01:24 AM'] that doesn't make sense to me. I can see why one would make that argument and why it is true, but it doesn't make sense at all. [/quote] What doesn't make sense about it? That it seems unfair? Oh well...life is like that.
dUSt Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 I'm closing this thread because I think sex talk is icky.
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Jan 22 2005, 11:24 PM'] that doesn't make sense to me. I can see why one would make that argument and why it is true, but it doesn't make sense at all. [/quote] God created mankind, male and female, and so from the beginning He intended man and woman to be united in an intimate life of communion, a communion that is both unitive and procreative, and this is God's original intention. The homosexual inclination, like all other forms of concupiscence, is a result of the fall from grace, and that is why it is to be resisted and overcome by the power of God's grace given to us in Christ Jesus. This is the constant teaching of the Church and it was solemnly reaffirmed at the Council of Trent. One who dissents from this teaching is no longer in full communion with the Catholic Church. [cf. Pope John Paul II, [u]Ad Tuendam Fidem[/u]] God bless, Todd
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