FOP to go or not to go

January 30, 2005

There was a time where I was interested in attending Charismatic prayer meetings just to see what its like... now.. I dont know

January 30, 2005

this is a big step, coming from me

(deep breath)

I think everyone ought to go and experience some charismatic thing at least once. You don't have to like it, and if you do, it's okay... you just can't get carried away. Just like with being "traditional" (though, this is a stupid label.. it's more like "conservative orthodoxy" lol) you can't get carried away and become schismatic or something.

I strongly dislike all things charismatic, but it does attract people to not only the Catholic faith, but to the importance of developing a relationship with Christ (and this is a good thing), the problem is when one refuses to mature and learn to rely on spiritual gifts that don't necessarily involve "blasts of emotion"...

January 30, 2005

This whole thread is why I did not go to FUS...

January 30, 2005

Another couple of steps like that, and you'll be at Bro Adam's Pub praying for the gift of sobriety!!

Seriously, Paul's epistles are full of references to gifts . . . in addition to speaking in tongues (a gift that has value, it seems to me, only if no one else speaks the language you know) was the gift of understanding (both of tongues, and in the general understanding of the term . . . wisdom or knowledge) Others gifts involved prophecy, the working of miracles, healing. If I remember correctly, these gifts descended only when one of the apostles was present and laid hands on the believer (except maybe at Pentecost?)

I think I'd be with Fides and Bro Adam and St Collette - there may be a place for this kind of worship - but it isn't a place I'm in.

January 30, 2005

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Jan 30 2005, 12:33 AM'] This whole thread is why I did not go to FUS... [/quote]
because they have a FOP there, or because they have people who don't like the FOP there?

January 30, 2005

:angry:

I like charismatic events/prayer.

January 30, 2005

[quote name='LiL Kat Said' date='Jan 30 2005, 12:53 AM'] :angry:

I like charismatic events/prayer. [/quote]
You're entitled to like them ^_^ We're not saying you can't, we were just stating that some of us find different means of prayer better for us ^_^

January 30, 2005

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Jan 29 2005, 11:33 PM'] This whole thread is why I did not go to FUS... [/quote]
Thats too bad, you missed out on something special I'm sure.

January 30, 2005

Jennie...blessed are the peacemakers...you've always been one of them.

I think that it is largely a matter of preference. Sorry for my post earlier...I got a little defensive. I don't pray in tongues and haven't received that gift, but some people on Phatmass may understand why I am defensive of mystics and mysticism.

I love you all, charismatic or not. I don't really identify with the charismatics, save that I admire and understand the spirit of the movement, even though my liturgical preferences are far more traditional.

God bless you!

January 30, 2005

yea. I don't think anyone has said all mysticism is false.

theo - I think it is still very worth it to be here for the daily campus life and the academic classes, especially if you are a theology or REd major.

January 30, 2005

[quote name='Christina' date='Jan 30 2005, 01:14 AM'] Thats too bad, you missed out on something special I'm sure. [/quote]
i dont think so. he went to another great catholic university...Benedict

January 30, 2005

[quote name='Raphael' date='Jan 30 2005, 03:28 AM'] I love you all, charismatic or not. I don't really identify with the charismatics, save that I admire and understand the spirit of the movement, even though my liturgical preferences are far more traditional.

God bless you! [/quote]
exactly. and that's pretty much where i am as well. i have some friends who are much more charismatic than i, and others who are not as into it, and they would all attest to the fact that i'm not a big charismatic person. in fact, in the paper i wrote last semester about the 2 groups, we always broke up into groups to critique each others' papers. the charismatic ppl in my group said i was 'bashing' them, and the traditional ppl said the same about themselves. i think ppl are far to defensive, and not open enough.

i hope i didn't portray any negative feelings last night. i simply saw how the thread was beginning to be ppl simply complaining about charismatics. i see many ppl who go the other way as well. and honestly, it just makes me really sad. it's not something negative about the University, but more about ppl needing to open their eyes and see the beauty of the various forms of worship. the whole purpose of a FOP is not to pray quietly. that's what the port is for... but it is an opportunity to gather as a student body and praise God with music. i love the FOPs because i can just go and praise God with all my heart. i can sing as loud as i want and give Him all of my worship. that's something we cannot do on a regular basis. and some ppl certainly like to just pray quietly. we all do. but once a month, we gather at FOPs to sing to our God and make a joyful noise to Him.

-Chris

January 30, 2005

I think I'll just stick to the Adoration Chapels...

January 30, 2005

[quote name='Raphael' date='Jan 30 2005, 03:28 AM'] Jennie...blessed are the peacemakers...you've always been one of them.
[/quote]
that's my fave beatitude

Edited January 30, 2005 by StColette

January 30, 2005

That is the main problem Chris is it is not to just praise God as loud as you can. I would go everytime if that was it. The focus is on the charisms of the Holy Spirit, most especially the gift of tongues. And the laying on of hands for the charisms by the laity is something I have never read anything in approval of.

There are other 'gripes' but I prefer not to spend so much time on them. As I originally said, I saw people there who were deeply in love with Christ and who were there under the best of intentions, and for that I can only commend the spirit in which they gathered.

1 Cor. 12:10 (KJV)
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Cor. 12:28 (KJV)
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Cor. 12:30 (KJV)
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1 Cor. 13:8 (KJV)
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Cor. 14:2-19 (KJV)
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. [3] But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. [4] He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. [5] [b]I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. [6] Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? [7][/b] And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? [8] For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? [9] So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. [10] There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. [11] Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. [12] Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. [13] [b]Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. [14] For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.[/b] [15] What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. [16] Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? [17] For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. [18] I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: [19] [b]Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. [/b]

1 Cor. 14:21-28 (KJV)
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. [22] Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. [23] If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? [24] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: [25] And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. [26] How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. [27] If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. [28] But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

1 Cor. 14:39 (KJV)
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Edited January 30, 2005 by Brother Adam

January 30, 2005

I agree with Adam in this one.

I was invited to go to the FOP, but had already decided beforehand not to go.

I have helped out in the charismatic renewal for 4 years. It's been my experience that the eagerness to be open to new gifts have widened the chance for abuses.

I don't consider myself charismatic or traditional, just catholic. There's a time and and place (not at Mass) for charisms and gifts. I tend to feel more comfortable in reverant, personal, quite, contemplative prayer. I have, however, prayed in tongues and rested in the spirit before. I think Catholicism is a balance of tradition and charism, just look at our Pope!

The one thing that does bother me about what Adam said is the whole people praying over others to get gifts. We never did that.

I agree that the intention is good, the spirit people gather in is good, but that an order has to be about our Faith so that we are focusing on the right things.

I'm with Theresa, I think i'll stick to the portcincula (sp). The pub thing is a great idea. Instead of Bible study, we could maybe study a little Catechism?

January 30, 2005

[quote name='Oik' date='Jan 30 2005, 03:52 PM'] The pub thing is a great idea. Instead of Bible study, we could maybe study a little Catechism? [/quote]
Don't they go hand in hand? :huh:

Anyhow. I'm serious. I'd play cards at the pub. :mellow:

January 30, 2005

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jan 30 2005, 02:22 PM'] That is the main problem Chris is it is not to just praise God as loud as you can. I would go everytime if that was it. The focus is on the charisms of the Holy Spirit, most especially the gift of tongues. And the laying on of hands for the charisms by the laity is something I have never read anything in approval of.

There are other 'gripes' but I prefer not to spend so much time on them. As I originally said, I saw people there who were deeply in love with Christ and who were there under the best of intentions, and for that I can only commend the spirit in which they gathered.

1 Cor. 12:10 (KJV)
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Cor. 12:28 (KJV)
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Cor. 12:30 (KJV)
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1 Cor. 13:8 (KJV)
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Cor. 14:2-19 (KJV)
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. [3] But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. [4] He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. [5] [b]I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. [6] Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? [7][/b] And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? [8] For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? [9] So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. [10] There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. [11] Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. [12] Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. [13] [b]Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. [14] For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.[/b] [15] What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. [16] Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? [17] For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. [18] I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: [19] [b]Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. [/b]

1 Cor. 14:21-28 (KJV)
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. [22] Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. [23] If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? [24] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: [25] And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. [26] How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. [27] If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. [28] But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

1 Cor. 14:39 (KJV)
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. [/quote]
well, i didn't mean that it was about 'being as loud as you can'. i meant it wasn't meant to be a quiet thing, but an opportunity to lift our voices.

i dunno. i don't feel qualified to make statements regarding the speaking of tongues. i know that there is much on both sides of that, and i'm not going there, as i do not know enough to either condemn or encourage it. so, i'm going to leave that as a personal thing between those ppl who practice that and ther priests. the University had its initial changing through the charismatic renewal. it's something fr. mike feels very strongly about. it's something the school is known for. thus, the FOPs are certainly going to contain elements of a charismatic celebration, just as daily Masses do. i think that at the FOPs there are ppl who go too far, but that's the FOP itself. i am only saying you cannot attend a FOP and judge it based on others that are there. when we go to Mass, and someone changes the 'he's' and 'father's' to 'god' or whatever, it doesn't mean i'm not going to go to Mass there. i'll try and not to sit next to those ppl next time. and it certainly doesn't change the fact that the Mass is still the Mass, and what ppl may do during Mass could be incorrect, but it shouldn't really affect you. if it does, you're not paying attention to what's important.

i'll admit. the first FOP or two i went to i felt really put of place. but because i'm not the charismatic type, i learned to focus myself, and not pay attention to the others around me. Fr. can tell ppl to pray for the gift of tongues, but that doesn't mean i'm required to, or i get burned at the stake. and like i said, that is also very much his thing. his charism, so to speak. you can't judge the whole event from only attending one, and because of something he said. in fact, i may even suggest you talk to him about it. i'm sure he'd be glad to. fr john gordon could probably give you a better understanding of why he does that, and perhaps clarify some things.

January 30, 2005

I talked to Fr. Scanlan last year. :mellow: He was a nice priest, but he didn't help... (but I also talked with him about other things as well as the charismatic stuff about the University).

January 30, 2005

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Jan 30 2005, 04:01 PM'] Don't they go hand in hand? :huh:

Anyhow. I'm serious. I'd play cards at the pub. :mellow: [/quote]
You mean Fides will really poke her head out of her dorm? :lol:

Saturday the 26th of Feb is the next FOP. Let's plan a holy hour at the Port for those that want to come and then I'll bring a couple of packs of cards and anyone that wants to can join in.

I'm all for a short Bible/Catechism study, if someone wants to expound on what they want to do.

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