leaving the rcc

[dairygirl4u2c]

thanks.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

This seems relevant:

"Two million people in the United States hate the Catholic Church, but probably only two hundred of those people really understand what it is they hate." -Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

[MichaelFilo]

Micah has made a point. Few people would leave slavation behind them. Some hearts are just too hard.

God bless,
Mikey

[Ash Wednesday]

I checked "don't know" --

I mean that's almost like knowing the state of someone's soul. My guess is that some people leave the Church because of hurtful events combined with ignorance, but some do know better and do it out of pleasure of rebellion against God.

[Guest Aluigi]

I know what her point is... watch and learn young padawan apologists...

this is in reference to Extra Ecclesium Nulla Sallus and the doctrine of inculpable ignorance.

inculpable ignorance means that
1) you don't know the Church is neccessary
2) AND it is not your fault that you don't know

if someone doesn't know through their own fault and leaves the Church it is still committing the sin that breaks one away from the Church's salvation. and this clearly does happen.

[thessalonian]

DON'T FEED THE TROLL!

SHE COULD CARE LESS ABOUT YOUR ANSWERS.

Edited February 16, 2005 by thessalonian

[Ash Wednesday]

Mmmmm....trolls.

[Iacobus]

I don't care if she cares about my answer or not, she does raise a semi valid point, that is, do people that know the Catholic Church is the Truth ever leave that Church?

I would argue that they rarely leave, but many leave. I know of a small number of people (less than 6) that have left the Catholic Church, but still hold that it is the Church founded by Christ, and seeing as that is a significant number of the ex-Catholics (or even active) I know, I would argue they do leave. Most didn't decided to leave, rather, were forced out by the "culture" fostered in some areas.

[Specter]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 15 2005, 06:49 PM'] This seems relevant:

"Two million people in the United States hate the Catholic Church, but probably only two hundred of those people really understand what it is they hate." -Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen [/quote]
"There are not 100 people who hate the Catholic Church; But there are millions who hate what they believe the Catholic Church to be."

[thirsty-for-orthodoxy]

My thought on the matter is that if people actually knew the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, they wouldn't want to leave, even if it meant death (ie the Holy Martyrs.) I believe that to know the Truth is more than just to have learned about it. Just as in Exodus, God tells Moses that He will carry out the plagues so that all may know Him. Well it is pretty unlikely that no one had heard of the God of Abraham before because they most likely had. So what was meant by the word know, it was something much, much deeper than an aquaintnace. God wanted to bring all his people back into His covenant with Him. The point I am trying to make is: To know the truth is to know God, and to truly know God you must be in covenant with Him. Therefore, if you [b]really[/b] knew the Truth, there is no way you would be able to just walk away.

Your Brother in Christ,

Kenny

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Specter' date='Feb 15 2005, 08:32 PM'] "There are not 100 people who hate the Catholic Church; But there are millions who hate what they believe the Catholic Church to be." [/quote]
Eh...maybe there are two different quotes...I was quoting from a source on Radio Evangelization.

[Jaime]

Consider these folks

My husband divorced me and my church only seems to tell me that its a sin


My son was a victim of the scandal and no one heard his voice for 30 years.


I'm attracted to my own gender but everywhere I turn in the Church, I'm told that my attraction will lead me to hell.


Don't get me wrong. I think its a great topic and a great debate in apologetics. I agree with others that it would be rare to find someone who arbitrarily walked away from the Church knowing full well where their salvation lay. However there are some real people who were given the Truth and walked away. Not because they rejected the Truth but because they weren't supported in their struggles.

I suggest that we are all accountable for some of the folks that chose to leave the Church.

[Winchester]

The answer lies in being courageous and being informed. Number one and two are due to misinformation. People teaching this should be removed from positions of authority and reeducated, then watched carefully.

Number two: Cowardice in the clergy and laity allowed the "scandal" to progress. Sadly, the state and press will not use this opportunity to fight the real causes of these problems. Our entire society allows molestors to return to freedom, hide their crimes and commit them again. The only solution left is for citizens to remove such criminals as they did in the past: a mob, a tree and a rope.

[Jaime]

I agree with you completely Winchester.

Also throwing the scandal in the list of examples was not to spin the topic from the original post. My point is this:

There are people I know who take their faith very personally (as we should) and due to circumstances outside of their control (i.e. the three examples listed) felt so unsupported in their personal struggle, they left the Church they loved.

The Church does not recognize divorce. Yet we have divorced Catholics

The Church is against homosexual acts. Yet we have homosexual Catholics.


The Church is not wrong in her teachings. But, as you know, the Church still teaches love to these people. Don't we, the body of the Church, bear some responsibility for not ministering to these people?

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]DON'T FEED THE TROLL!
SHE COULD CARE LESS ABOUT YOUR ANSWERS.[/quote]
not really sure what a troll is..
or what this quote means and stuff, but okay...

Edited February 16, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[Winchester]

We also have Catholics who masturbate, who look at pornography, who are adulterers. The problem occurs when people see their sin or problem as some special circumstance. Life is difficult, no one said otherwise. You choose to marry; some people have divorce shoved on them by their spouse. If there's no anullment, the only other option is waiting for the death of the spouse or bringing it about (I'm kidding, I'm kidding.) But that's the world's fault, not the Church's.
With homosexuality, there's a perception that we are dealing with special circumstnaces, when really feeling a pull toward such acts is no different than feeling a pull toward any other sin. Few argue that psychopaths are clear to kill because God made them have their homicidal urges. Few argue that pedophiles have the right to molest children because of their urges or positions as the "king of rock," though I must add the ACLU protects their alleged right to do so.

The problem is with the world, not the church.

[Donna]

[quote]Most didn't decided to leave, rather, were forced out by the "culture" fostered in some areas[/quote]

Which culture do you mean, Iacobus?

[quote]Therefore, if you really knew the Truth, there is no way you would be able to just walk away.[/quote]

I know what you mean, Thirsty. But yours is a good will speaking.

On a related note in Thess, St. Paul said (referring to those who'd be taken in by the antichrist) that their seduction is at least in part because "they receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved...therefore God will send them the operation of error, to believe a lie".

So that speaks of a diabolical disorientation.

But I also think that people can know the truth and [i]hate [/i]it.

[Donna]

hot stuff,

It is true, there are wounds so deep, beyond our control, and sufferings desparate that can be borne or made unbearable by the treatment of clergy/layity.
There are key times of crisis in which the human element of the Church can literally foster death - or life.

I know not what else to say, except to repeat something I've heard: hang onto whatever thread of the Faith you can...just hang on.

My understanding is that divorce is not a sin...but bad reasons/behavior for leading to it are. I know women ( and one man) who've had no choice in the matter, it was visited upon them. The women are chaste and saints for it; it is an heroic struggle, yet I am certain that God loves them so much more than others who have not and can not bear these great crosses.

[i]Big Theresa, pray for us![/i]

Edited February 16, 2005 by Donna

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 16 2005, 03:25 AM'] I agree with you completely Winchester.

Also throwing the scandal in the list of examples was not to spin the topic from the original post. My point is this:

There are people I know who take their faith very personally (as we should) and due to circumstances outside of their control (i.e. the three examples listed) felt so unsupported in their personal struggle, they left the Church they loved.

The Church does not recognize divorce. Yet we have divorced Catholics

The Church is against homosexual acts. Yet we have homosexual Catholics.


The Church is not wrong in her teachings. But, as you know, the Church still teaches love to these people. Don't we, the body of the Church, bear some responsibility for not ministering to these people? [/quote]
It also depends on what one considers "support".

Do we want our hand held or it pointed to the right direction to take after the disaster?
Do we want to live in victimhood or move to grace because of our circumstances?

Life is suffering and joy.

The Church certainly recognizes there is divorce and homosexuality, but she can't change the rules to make ones life any easier.
She loves us, but is more concerned with our eternal happiness than our earthly happiness.
We conform to the Church, not the Church to us. And we are our brothers keeper.
So if any member of the Body of Christ suffers for ANY reason we all suffer.

[God Conquers]

i dunno