leaving the rcc

[Jaime]

[quote]Do we want our hand held or it pointed to the right direction to take after the disaster? [/quote]

Why in the world would these be mutually exclusive actions?

[quote]The Church certainly recognizes there is divorce and homosexuality, but she can't change the rules to make ones life any easier. [/quote]

Let's be clear. The Church recognizes that there is divorce. But it does not recognize the civil authority claim that the contract has been broken. The union is still standing unless it is annulled.

I'm not suggesting (nor ever would) that the Church "change her rules". To the contrary, I am suggesting that we, the body of the Church, are not fully demonstrating Her rules.

Unlike adulterers, viewers of pornography and masturbators (referenced by Winchester), the three groups I mentioned can be left to feel scandalized and ashamed. And yes some of them will rightfully feel victimized. But our role should be to support them in their journey from "victim" to "survivor", not just quote the rules. Should they learn about the rules? absolutely. But in so many cases they are not getting the full message.

"Divorce is a grave offense. And the Church loves you deeply"

"homosexuality is intrinsically disordered. And the Church loves you deeply"

The poll asks "How often do people leave the Church knowing that its true?" Others have claimed that it could never happen. They couldn't possibly know that the Church represents Truth and leave her. My examples show that one can know the truth and still leave. And the reason for that is they received the instruction but not the fact that the Church loves you deeply.

[quote]
Life is suffering and joy[/quote]

That is EXACTLY why the Church exists. Because there is suffering in the world.

Hey, I'm new to these parts and I'd like to be clear. I am not promoting any agenda. I'm just offering an opinion on the poll.

[argent_paladin]

The way the question was worded, I would have to say "no one". Aquinas says that we aloways choose what appears to us to be true. PJ2 says that humans are by nature truth seeksers. No one knowingly chooses a lie over the truth. Even if someone says "The Church is true, but it denies me pleasure so I choose pleasure instead", they really mean that pleasure is their truth not the Church, because the Church teaches that there are more important things than pleasure. I don't believe that a single person who believes all that the Church teaches has ever left the Church because that would be a contradiction. If one believes what the Church teaches about heresy or indifference and about the nature of sin and the joys of heaven and the blessings of prayer and community, etc it would be inconcievable that someone would leave.
I would also say that there is a difference between accepting the Church's teaching and truly understainding it and knowing that it is true.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 16 2005, 12:23 PM']
Why in the world would these be mutually exclusive actions?



Let's be clear. The Church recognizes that there is divorce. But it does not recognize the civil authority claim that the contract has been broken. The union is still standing unless it is annulled.

I'm not suggesting (nor ever would) that the Church "change her rules". To the contrary, I am suggesting that we, the body of the Church, are not fully demonstrating Her rules.

Unlike adulterers, viewers of pornography and masturbators (referenced by Winchester), the three groups I mentioned can be left to feel scandalized and ashamed. And yes some of them will rightfully feel victimized. But our role should be to support them in their journey from "victim" to "survivor", not just quote the rules. Should they learn about the rules? absolutely. But in so many cases they are not getting the full message.

"Divorce is a grave offense. And the Church loves you deeply"

"homosexuality is intrinsically disordered. And the Church loves you deeply"

The poll asks "How often do people leave the Church knowing that its true?" Others have claimed that it could never happen. They couldn't possibly know that the Church represents Truth and leave her. My examples show that one can know the truth and still leave. And the reason for that is they received the instruction but not the fact that the Church loves you deeply.



That is EXACTLY why the Church exists. Because there is suffering in the world.

Hey, I'm new to these parts and I'd like to be clear. I am not promoting any agenda. I'm just offering an opinion on the poll. [/quote]
The only reason to leave the Church would be if the Church wasn't true.
The circumstances of our lives are never a reason.
Saying yes is primarily an act of will, not emotion.

[Jaime]

[quote] The only reason to leave the Church would be if the Church wasn't true.
[/quote]

I'm sorry but that statement contradicts free will.

As far as the other two statements, forgive me but maybe I'm a bit dim. Are you saying that the law should be sufficient for these people?

[cmotherofpirl]

No, if the Church weren't true then you could freely leave it.

I think God should be my support system, not the people in the Church.
I guess it depends on how you define support. My Church was helpful when my husband deserted us, but I was my job to carry on my life. My being Catholic does not depend on whether the people in my church are supportive or not. It is because the Church is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic: it is true.

[RemnantRules]

Blessed Be God!!!


Everything about leaving the Church and leaving the Truth is no "Modern" thing. It happen even when Jesus came down from heaven. John 6:66.

It is said one who becomes to know the knowledge of the truth and the truth of their salvation and walks away puts their soul in danger.




God Bless
Jason Gregory

[Jaime]

cmotherofpirl

I love the Church. I know the Church very well and I am free to leave it at any time. I won't, but I can choose to.

[quote]I guess it depends on how you define support.[/quote]

[quote] During his public life Jesus not only forgave sins, but also made plain the effect of this forgiveness: he reintegrated forgiven sinners into the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded them. A remarkable sign of this is the fact that Jesus receives sinners at his table, a gesture that expresses in an astonishing way both God's forgiveness and the return to the bosom of the People of God.[/quote]

I think this is where folks (we the royal priesthood) can miss the boat. Too often I think we leave things as "This is what the Church teaches" and forget what the Catechism teaches us about the reintegration of sinners i.e. the broken.



[quote] My being Catholic does not depend on whether the people in my church are supportive or not.[/quote]

But it has. All the way to your first initiation

[quote] Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: "What do you ask of God's Church?" The response is: "Faith!"[/quote]

It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. We very much need each other. That is why this blog is so popular. Because we all have an internal calling to belong.

And i believe we forget that when dealing with those who feel disenfranchised.

Edited February 16, 2005 by jaime

[Theoketos]

This is private relevation at Famitma...I think Mary said in a vision that souls fall into hell like snowflakes.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 16 2005, 04:43 PM'] cmotherofpirl

I love the Church. I know the Church very well and I am free to leave it at any time. I won't, but I can choose to.





I think this is where folks (we the royal priesthood) can miss the boat. Too often I think we leave things as "This is what the Church teaches" and forget what the Catechism teaches us about the reintegration of sinners i.e. the broken.





But it has. All the way to your first initiation



It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. We very much need each other. That is why this blog is so popular. Because we all have an internal calling to belong.

And i believe we forget that when dealing with those who feel disenfranchised. [/quote]
So how to do you define Chruch support?

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='Specter' date='Feb 15 2005, 07:32 PM'] "There are not 100 people who hate the Catholic Church; But there are millions who hate what they believe the Catholic Church to be." [/quote]
Amen!

[MichaelFilo]

One of the clearest examples of those who recognize that the Church is the Truth handed down by Christ but choose a lie over Truth are those in the ranks of liberals who want to change teachin about things they will not try to change in themselves, or at least have not at the time of their seeing the need for the Church to change according to them. There will be some who leave the Church for their earthly ends. They may recognize the Church as teh truth, and may be so manipulated as to know it but not accept it. Which brings me to a keypoint. The Church is the Pillar of Truth. Some recognize this but for various reasons choose other things over Her. People are by their nature truth seekers, but when you are entrapped by a world cultivated to hate the Church and Her members, sometimes you can get sucked up in it.

if no one believed the Church to be the Truth and instead chose to leave Her then no Catholic would struggle with sin and give in to the Deceiver. If no one believed the Church to be True and left Her then we wouldn't have anyone who has had trouble with marriage issues (they couldn't get married again) their sexual disorders (certain people on PM have clearly shown this struggle) loss of Faith, being convinced to the contrary, etc. This is clearly not true. People will be decieved putting their trust in others above the Church and God's promises in Her, people will fall away, and for many reasons too long to list in any one post. All of them are vile and hateful reasons that hold no water in the light of God and His Love.

God bless,
Mikey

[Jaime]

Cmotherofpirl asks "How do you define Church support?

I believe Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

[Melchisedec]

When I was a child we lived in a small community in the carribean where the Catholic church was our very life. My mothers eventual leaving of the church was over, divorce for one and two, the disallowment of things she tought to be mundane. We were not allowed most toys, not to watch star wars, and certain shows. When we bought our atari, they told us to get rid of it and my mom had the last straw lol. She could not understand why they would disallow such things that she felt were not harmful nor really important. In my case, I dont believe the bible is the inspired word of god. So in my case, I walked away because its not true to me. My mom walked away for a more liberal christian church. It seems very common today that people leave to a church that suits there views more so. And considering the openness of interpetation of the bible, those types of churches are all over the place.

Edited February 17, 2005 by Melchisedec

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 17 2005, 12:51 PM'] Cmotherofpirl asks "How do you define Church support?

I believe Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith. [/quote]
I totally agree. While there is need for communion with one another, let the communion be because of Christ and not become a social event. If we combine what cmotherofpirl is suggesting and what jamie is suggesting, we end up with a social being that is first and foremost a Catholic. Remember, Jesus was not a hermit. He socialized and attended social gatherings. For what do we need evangalizers, apologists, etc. for if not to give the word of God to each other. Therefore, we need one another to strengthen each other in the faith. In John's gospel, Jesus prayed that the apostles be one as he and the Father are one. How do you think they could accomplish that without being with one another?

[Jaime]

[quote] If we combine what cmotherofpirl is suggesting and what jamie is suggesting, we end up with a social being that is first and foremost a Catholic[/quote]

Which parts? Because I think the two of us are in a polite disagreement.

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 18 2005, 07:49 AM']
Which parts? Because I think the two of us are in a polite disagreement. [/quote]
The part where cmotherofpirl is saying that if you really know your faith then there would be no reason for you to leave the church. And the part where you say that there needs to be a support system and that we are responsible for one another to keep our faith up. If you put those together and combine them you get the total package of what we all should be, a well informed social catholic.

Someone who is ingrained with the essence of our faith, yet does not keep it hidden. "No one lights a lamp and hides it in a jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, he puts it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light. " Lk 8:16

Because of varying circumstances it is not possible for everyone to be well educated in the faith. It is even in Jesus' parable.
“A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants." MT 18:3-7

Thats why we need those people whose seed of faith had fallen on fertile ground, to step up and be pillars for other whose faith wanes. It is not enough that you know your faith, you need to be a "social butterfly" so that other will know their faith, too.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 17 2005, 06:08 PM'] When I was a child we lived in a small community in the carribean where the Catholic church was our very life. My mothers eventual leaving of the church was over, divorce for one and two, the disallowment of things she tought to be mundane. We were not allowed most toys, not to watch star wars, and certain shows. When we bought our atari, they told us to get rid of it and my mom had the last straw lol. She could not understand why they would disallow such things that she felt were not harmful nor really important. In my case, I dont believe the bible is the inspired word of god. So in my case, I walked away because its not true to me. My mom walked away for a more liberal christian church. It seems very common today that people leave to a church that suits there views more so. And considering the openness of interpetation of the bible, those types of churches are all over the place. [/quote]
This is a cultural thing , not a catholic thing. The church doesn't have an opinion on
Star Wars or Atari.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 17 2005, 04:51 PM'] Cmotherofpirl asks "How do you define Church support?

I believe Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith. [/quote]
I didn't ask you about faith I asked you to define support. .
What do you think the church needs to do to meet what you consider a minimum of support?

I know we are supposed to love one another, but as a fallable sinful human, most of us fail quite often at this. To depend on others is to be disappointed. To depend on God who is emeth is a sure bet. I don't expect humans to carry me when God is available. Yes we can help we oter in crisis, but God alone is the source of strength as in Psalm 23.

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 18 2005, 11:40 AM'] I didn't ask you about faith I asked you to define support. .
What do you think the church needs to do to meet what you consider a minimum of support?

I know we are supposed to love one another, but as a fallable sinful human, most of us fail quite often at this. To depend on others is to be disappointed. To depend on God who is emeth is a sure bet. I don't expect humans to carry me when God is available. Yes we can help we oter in crisis, but God alone is the source of strength as in Psalm 23. [/quote]
There is a difference between supporting one another and depending on one another.

Dependency:
n 1: lack of independence or self-sufficiency

Supportive:
adj : furnishing support or assistance;

If we create dependency on one another in our faith we are bound to be dissapointed, but supporting or assisting one another in our gathering is a way of keeping our dependency on God strong.

[Jaime]

[quote]
I know we are supposed to love one another, but as a fallable sinful human, most of us fail quite often at this[/quote]

and THAT is the reason why some willfully choose to leave the Church. Because we as their brethren fail.

[quote] There is a difference between supporting one another and depending on one another[/quote]

But their is also a step in between support and dependence called interdependence. Meaning that once in a while, we need others to lean on.

To manifest Faith we need two things: God and other people. It is in both that Christ is revealed. They are intertwined and inseparable. To deny one is to deny the fullness of God.

Where were you when I was hungry? etc. The "where were you" question is not simply limited to "hungry, cold, imprisoned, etc" but to all that are hurting.

There are people who leave our Church simply because they are hurting. We can debate back and forth abstractly if they are "leaving in full knowledge" or not. The short answer is "It doesn't matter". They left.

Most people think that providing support means providing answers. That isn't the case. We do not have to provide answers to questions like "Why did my husband leave me?" or "Do you think God made me gay?". The only answers that most of us are qualified to give are

God loves you deeply

Please don't leave the Church. We desparately need you.

I have my masters in counseling. I've studied psychology and counseling techniques for years. Without question, the most supportive thing I've ever heard came out of the mouth of a 17 year old girl. Want to know what she said?

"You're a good person. There are lots of people who love you"

At the core, that is what all of us long to know. That we are good and that people love us.