leaving the rcc

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 18 2005, 12:43 PM']
and THAT is the reason why some willfully choose to leave the Church. Because we as their brethren fail.



But their is also a step in between support and dependence called interdependence. Meaning that once in a while, we need others to lean on.

To manifest Faith we need two things: God and other people. It is in both that Christ is revealed. They are intertwined and inseparable. To deny one is to deny the fullness of God.

Where were you when I was hungry? etc. The "where were you" question is not simply limited to "hungry, cold, imprisoned, etc" but to all that are hurting.

There are people who leave our Church simply because they are hurting. We can debate back and forth abstractly if they are "leaving in full knowledge" or not. The short answer is "It doesn't matter". They left.

Most people think that providing support means providing answers. That isn't the case. We do not have to provide answers to questions like "Why did my husband leave me?" or "Do you think God made me gay?". The only answers that most of us are qualified to give are

God loves you deeply

Please don't leave the Church. We desparately need you.

I have my masters in counseling. I've studied psychology and counseling techniques for years. Without question, the most supportive thing I've ever heard came out of the mouth of a 17 year old girl. Want to know what she said?

"You're a good person. There are lots of people who love you"

At the core, that is what all of us long to know. That we are good and that people love us. [/quote]
I am not sure about interdependence. I am on the fence with that one, only because interdependence connotes reciprocal dependency. I do agree one hundred percent on your next three paragraphs.

About giving answers, it is not really you who gives answers, when you open yourself up to the Spirit, it is the Spirit that gives the answers. You basically become a messenger.

"7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." 1Cor 12:7-11

Even to geniuses God will give wisdom for the common good. You might think I am veering off the road, but when faith is concerned and it is manifested and grown, the gifts of the Spirit are not far behind. It does need to be taken into account and that answers given to other people who seek it may come from God through you.

At the core, Jesus is love. If you have Jesus in your heart, you have love in your heart. Along with it is humility, where we come to the realization that we are sinners and unworthy of the love that Jesus is continually giving us. If everyone of us puts Jesus in their heart, we will naturally love one another. The saints loved everyone but not everyone loved them. It is not a requirement to know that people love you to love them, nor is it needed to be joyful in your love for Jesus.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 18 2005, 04:43 PM']
and THAT is the reason why some willfully choose to leave the Church. Because we as their brethren fail.



But their is also a step in between support and dependence called interdependence. Meaning that once in a while, we need others to lean on.

To manifest Faith we need two things: God and other people. It is in both that Christ is revealed. They are intertwined and inseparable. To deny one is to deny the fullness of God.

Where were you when I was hungry? etc. The "where were you" question is not simply limited to "hungry, cold, imprisoned, etc" but to all that are hurting.

There are people who leave our Church simply because they are hurting. We can debate back and forth abstractly if they are "leaving in full knowledge" or not. The short answer is "It doesn't matter". They left.

Most people think that providing support means providing answers. That isn't the case. We do not have to provide answers to questions like "Why did my husband leave me?" or "Do you think God made me gay?". The only answers that most of us are qualified to give are

God loves you deeply

Please don't leave the Church. We desparately need you.

I have my masters in counseling. I've studied psychology and counseling techniques for years. Without question, the most supportive thing I've ever heard came out of the mouth of a 17 year old girl. Want to know what she said?

"You're a good person. There are lots of people who love you"

At the core, that is what all of us long to know. That we are good and that people love us. [/quote]
You will never find a church where people don't fail you in one way or another, it doesn't exist. People will fail you, but God does not.

The church for 2000 years has been telling us God loves us. Its where they preach and teach this message day in and day out. So to leave the source of grace because its not holding your hand is to cut off your nose to spite your face.

Its not a social service agency, its a conduit of grace. Its our connection to the eternal. Anybody can hold your hand, not too many people can hand you the Body of Christ.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 18 2005, 01:43 PM']
and THAT is the reason why some willfully choose to leave the Church. Because we as their brethren fail. [/quote]
That Catholic church would have been empty LONG ago if we all left because our brethen failed us at one time or another.

[Jaime]

[quote] You will never find a church where people don't fail you in one way or another, it doesn't exist. People will fail you, but God does not. [/quote]

While that may be true, does that alleviate our responsibility to each other? Does that infer that we do not need each other?

[quote]Its not a social service agency, its a conduit of grace. Its our connection to the eternal.[/quote]

You are right about the last two statements. You are wrong about the first. The Church was created [i] because there is suffering in the world.[/i] It was not created to end our suffering on earth but to strengthen us in our suffering. As the Church strengthens us, we must strengthen each other.

I'm sorry but "God is enough for me" does not reflect the fullness of the Church. The people in our Church are integral to our faith. Not just the ones that are hunky dory but the ones that are in pain.

To put it simply, when we accurately reflect the love of Christ, people join the Church. When we do not, they leave and we fail in what we are called to do.

Edited February 20, 2005 by jaime

[jmjtina]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 20 2005, 09:01 AM'] When we do not, they leave and we fail in what we are called to do. [/quote]
You seem to imply it is all our fault they leave. Even if we were to accurately reflect the love of Christ, people have the choice to accept it or not to accept it.

It happened in the time of Jesus, it happens still today. People will walk away to live the sinful lives they want to. I've heard too many cop-outs of how "they didn't feel the love" and left the Church. And I've also heard of such faithful who go through so much trusting in the Church, living the lives God has called them to courageously.

I do agree that we are to reflect to love of Christ, but people are free to reject or accept the love Christ has to offer through the Church.

[Jaime]

[quote] People will walk away to live the sinful lives they want to.[/quote]

True. Free will allows that. I should have been more specific that my statement was more towards the three examples that I've listed in previous posts.

But I don't think the "I don't feel the love" is in any way a cop out. I think too many folks have the attitude of "I'm fine with God and that's enough" and forget one irrefutable fact.

Our faith is, and always has been, dependent on others. When people leave, our faith suffers.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 20 2005, 09:20 AM'] But I don't think the "I don't feel the love" is in any way a cop out. I think too many folks have the attitude of "I'm fine with God and that's enough" and forget one irrefutable fact.

Our faith is, and always has been, dependent on others. When people leave, our faith suffers. [/quote]
It is a cop-out for some, not all.

Our faith does suffer because everyone is made for the kingdom of God. We want everyone to go to heaven. However, it is thier own choice to leave. And if they leave the Church, knowing full well that it is the truth and the only way to salvation, fully knowledgeable, than they will suffer more than we can ever imagine.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with the fact that we are to help each other. But if that is ALL we have, we will be disappointed time and time again. You MUST put more trust in God than in your fellow man. Because it is those you love the most that will hurt you the most.....except God.

If we are to reflect the love of Christ, people will hate us and misunderstand us just as they did Jesus. And some will reject the truth. Why?

Because we all have free will.

[AngelofJesus]

[quote]But if that is ALL we have, we will be disappointed time and time again. You MUST put more trust in God than in your fellow man. Because it is those you love the most that will hurt you the most.....except God.[/quote]


I don't think jamie is saying that helping one another is the be all and end all of our faith. What I think she is saying is that the "fullness" of our faith is:

Depending on God and supporting one another.

[Jaime]

[quote]I don't think jamie is saying that helping one another is the be all and end all of our faith. What I think she is saying is that the "fullness" of our faith is:

Depending on God and supporting one another.[/quote]

That's pretty close Angelofjesus (Mind if I call you Angelo? ) What I'm trying to get folks to recognize here is that our faith is dependent upon each other. I get the feeling that there are some that would disagree with that fundamental statement.

Hey Angelo... thanks for having my back!!

[MichaelFilo]

Jamie makes a point. We do depend on other people to teach us about the Faith, to carry out the Christian message, and to be our friends (even proverbs praises a good friend).

Only the first is important. Teaching us about the Faith and preserving it is all that we can expect humanity to do, sinc ethe Holy Spirit carries on this task by the infalliable Church.

WE are all called to support each other. We are not called to be consoled. While it is a good thing to have support, it is far from a good thing to look for support in other people. Only spouses should do that (they are one in flesh) but even then spouses are only human and may not recognize this oneness. That only leaves God as our only expected source of support. Having a supporting friend is a boon to us, but should never be expected.

A good example is one I told my friend : We are all here to help each other. We are all to show kindness to each other. But if you expect kindness from anyone else it is no longer kindness being bestowed upon you from your perspective, but a duty being carried out. People aren't perfect, and expecting anything from any human is sure to end in dissapointment. The only thing you can expect from anyone else is for them to fail.

The Church isn't an AA meeting for alcoholics. It's a place where the alcoholic may find God and receive His Grace. Finding someone who can help him with the problem is a blessing that should not be demanded as part of going to Church, or being part of Her.

In reality however, we do lean on many people, and this does dissapoint us. Some people ar emore reliable than others and they should be sought out. However, we must all strive to depend on God alone. Even when working through one of His children, the person is still not perfect.

God bless,
Mikey

[jmjtina]

nicely put mikey,

the only thing I disagree with hot stuff is the statement he made that our faith is dependent on each other. We DO need other people (heck, I need people to change my oil in my truck for me!) but I don't think we are totally dependent on others for our faith.


and I thought hot stuff was a guy?

[Jaime]

[quote]and I thought hot stuff was a guy? blink.gif[/quote]

He is a guy

[Cam42]

Himey dude,

They think you are a girl!!!!! We're goin' to Hooter's when I get back to the Cities right????



Cam42

[frozencell]

I think it's like anything else in life. If you know for a fact that whatever it is you have the true, or right, or only thing then you are going to hang on to it. I think that very little people walk away from what they KNOW is the truth, and it usually has to do with some circumstance which they are feeling angry or betrayed about (my opinion).

[Jaime]

If you ever make it back to the cities buddy

[yiannii]

What's with all the polls dairygirl4u2c? Are you planning on writing an article or something? I am getting a bad feeling...

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='argent_paladin' post='525034' date='Feb 16 2005, 10:34 AM']The way the question was worded, I would have to say "no one". Aquinas says that we aloways choose what appears to us to be true. PJ2 says that humans are by nature truth seeksers. No one knowingly chooses a lie over the truth. Even if someone says "The Church is true, but it denies me pleasure so I choose pleasure instead", they really mean that pleasure is their truth not the Church, because the Church teaches that there are more important things than pleasure. I don't believe that a single person who believes all that the Church teaches has ever left the Church because that would be a contradiction. If one believes what the Church teaches about heresy or indifference and about the nature of sin and the joys of heaven and the blessings of prayer and community, etc it would be inconcievable that someone would leave.
I would also say that there is a difference between accepting the Church's teaching and truly understainding it and knowing that it is true.[/quote]

I disagree, argent, and to be honest I think this is a misreading of both Aquinas and JP2. Your position is essentially the position of Socrates (the philosopher, not the phatmasser), namely that Truth and Knowledge are one and that if someone really [i]knows[/i] what is good then they will do it. This is a position that Aristotle directly argued [i]against[/i] and Thomas Aquinas inherited this aspect of Aristotle's thought. The reason and the will are not the same faculty for Aquinas and it takes a great deal of effort and virtue to make reason the master of the will. As such, it is absolutely possible for someone to [i]know[/i] intellectually the Truth of the Church and to will for something else. This is so because the will can either be guided by Reason or by the Passions, and oftentimes certain passions - especially shame, despair, or anger - are able to turn the will from what we know intellectually is true.

Your Brother In Christ, Mary, and St. Dominic,

Jeff

Edited July 5, 2007 by JeffCR07

[dairygirl4u2c]

i was gonna say it, but jeff already said it, as usual. so, what jeff said.