My Apologetics Website

[tinytherese]

Have either of you tried counseling for the depression?

[Hassan]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1946174' date='Aug 11 2009, 12:51 PM']As someone who goes through that same skepticism every day without fail, I've got to know: are you [i]happy?[/i]

Sometimes, I find myself so overwhelmed by doubts and the (negative) consequences my faith has had on interpersonal relationships in my life, that I get smothered and feel the need to walk away for a season, and clear my mind.

I haven't, though. Deep down, I know myself, and I know I'd feel completely empty if not for my faith. Sure, I'd get some things back perhaps, but I'd lose my reason to have hope. And that smells of elderberries, too. Sometimes, it feels like a lose-lose. I'd rather stay; at least I know I have tools to stay afloat here.

Take your time approaching it again...one of the nice things about God is that He's so patient while we work things out. I hope you don't mind if I pray for you--maybe it'll help me, too. [/quote]


This is why I could never be religious.

If your faith were a purely private matter that would be one thing. But all of the Orthodox versions of the major monotheistic religions demand that their followers restrict the rights and liberties of other people. Like your Church and gay marriage. If you don't know, or at least have very strong rational grounds for your faith then how can you be part of the meddling in the lives of others? I'm not kidding when I say this is a major reason why I would not allow myself to return to religion. It just seems irresponsible to needlessly interfere in the liberties of others for an ideology you have adopted or maintained because it gives you "hope".

[MissyP89]

Who, me? It's not really like that...it never lasts, and I can shake it off within a few days. I'm too stubborn to stay down for long.

Edited August 11, 2009 by MissyP89

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1946178' date='Aug 11 2009, 12:56 PM']This is why I could never be religious.

If your faith were a purely private matter that would be one thing. But all of the Orthodox versions of the major monotheistic religions demand that their followers restrict the rights and liberties of other people. Like your Church and gay marriage. If you don't know, or at least have very strong rational grounds for your faith then how can you be part of the meddling in the lives of others? I'm not kidding when I say this is a major reason why I would not allow myself to return to religion. It just seems irresponsible to needlessly interfere in the liberties of others for an ideology you have adopted or maintained because it gives you "hope".[/quote]

Sweetie, don't go saying I interfere with the lives of others. I don't--hell, I barely talk about my faith out in the real world. Please don't lump me in with others that believe it their responsibility to shove their religion down the throats of others. (And if I'm totally reading you wrong, have mercy--I'm still having my coffee right now. )

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1946178' date='Aug 11 2009, 12:56 PM']This is why I could never be religious.

If your faith were a purely private matter that would be one thing. But all of the Orthodox versions of the major monotheistic religions demand that their followers restrict the rights and liberties of other people. Like your Church and gay marriage. If you don't know, or at least have very strong rational grounds for your faith then how can you be part of the meddling in the lives of others? I'm not kidding when I say this is a major reason why I would not allow myself to return to religion. It just seems irresponsible to needlessly interfere in the liberties of others for an ideology you have adopted or maintained because it gives you "hope".[/quote]
Every group demands this, regardless. Every individual demands this. I'm certain you do, as well. You find your coercion acceptable, is all.

[Hassan]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1946181' date='Aug 11 2009, 12:00 PM']Sweetie, don't go saying I interfere with the lives of others. I don't--hell, I barely talk about my faith out in the real world. Please don't lump me in with others that believe it their responsibility to shove their religion down the throats of others. (And if I'm totally reading you wrong, have mercy--I'm still having my coffee right now. )[/quote]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make it seem like you were shoving your religion down other people's throats. However your religion does seem to work to limit the rights of others. In that it seems to require its members to oppose things like gay marriage. Even if you personally don't work for this you are lending support to the religion which as a whole does oppose things like the state recognition of gay marriage. I don't mean to make this sound like an accusation. You seem like a nice person. There are many wonderful people here. However they all seem to be willing to either directly or indirectly limit the rights of other, curb their ability to pursue their dreams and goals, on the basis of a "faith", an ideology which they accept because it gives their lives meaning or hope or whatever. That seems to me to be wrong and irresponsible. I'm sure you are a better person than I am. So I don't mean to make it seem as though I'm suggesting such people are just selfish or morally bankrupt. I just think in this particular area it is selfish and irresponsible. I just don't understand how that doesn't bother more people of faith.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1946184' date='Aug 11 2009, 12:05 PM']Every group demands this, regardless. Every individual demands this. I'm certain you do, as well. You find your coercion acceptable, is all.[/quote]


Every group and attempt to regulate society does inhibit the liberty of others. I think there, is a difference between making the best decision possible based on the evidence available, while admitting personal fallibility, and making such a decision based on an ideology not based on evidence but based on a personal need. Like hope or life direction. That doesn't apply to all religious people. But if you simply adopt the faith for personal needs and that faith demands limitations be placed on the rights of others I don't know what you call that other than irresponsible. It doesn't just apply to religions. I'd say the same about a dogmatic Marxist who adopts Marxism because it satisfies some emotion hole in his life.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1946190' date='Aug 11 2009, 01:13 PM']I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make it seem like you were shoving your religion down other people's throats. However your religion does seem to work to limit the rights of others. In that it seems to require its members to oppose things like gay marriage. Even if you personally don't work for this you are lending support to the religion which as a whole does oppose things like the state recognition of gay marriage. I don't mean to make this sound like an accusation. You seem like a nice person. There are many wonderful people here. However they all seem to be willing to either directly or indirectly limit the rights of other, curb their ability to pursue their dreams and goals, on the basis of a "faith", an ideology which they accept because it gives their lives meaning or hope or whatever. That seems to me to be wrong and irresponsible. I'm sure you are a better person than I am. So I don't mean to make it seem as though I'm suggesting such people are just selfish or morally bankrupt. I just think in this particular area it is selfish and irresponsible. I just don't understand how that doesn't bother more people of faith.[/quote]

Understood. I know you know this, but it all hinges on our concept of objective good and sin being the deviation of that objective good--the natural law. It's sort of like society limits [i]your[/i] right to run around naked. That would probably be really freeing and all, but the natural law--and in this case, civil law as well--prohibits it.

But, I digress. We're hijacking. You can start a new thread, if you wanted...

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1946177' date='Aug 11 2009, 10:54 AM']Have either of you tried counseling for the depression?[/quote]
Yes. I'm taking things one day at a time and I've been doing well.

[Katholikos]

Anyone with a scientific bent would do well to read [i]The Science Before Science, A Guide to Thinking in the 21st Century.[/i] The author is Anthony Rizzi, a theoretical physicist and founder of the Institute for Advanced Physics. Dr. Rizzi is a renowned scientist --he solved a problem in Einstein's theory that had gone unanswered for 80 years. He is also a committed Catholic. This book teaches the art of clear thinking, so lacking in our society.

Also recommended reading is John Paul the Great's Fidei et Ratio (Faith and Reason). Science and Reason have the same source -- they both come from the mind of God.

Katholikos, ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

[Ash Wednesday]

I love seeing old friends again!!!
Katholikos!

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1946252' date='Aug 11 2009, 12:46 PM']Anyone with a scientific bent would do well to read [i]The Science Before Science, A Guide to Thinking in the 21st Century.[/i] The author is Anthony Rizzi, a theoretical physicist and founder of the Institute for Advanced Physics. Dr. Rizzi is a renowned scientist --he solved a problem in Einstein's theory that had gone unanswered for 80 years. He is also a committed Catholic. This book teaches the art of clear thinking, so lacking in our society.

Also recommended reading is John Paul the Great's Fidei et Ratio (Faith and Reason). Science and Reason have the same source -- they both come from the mind of God.

Katholikos, ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic![/quote]
Thanks for the recommendations.

I've read many many books and stories about people and their ideas and beliefs about this kind of stuff. But none of it changes the way my brain works and the level of proof I need in order to satisfy my own doubts. It's just something I have to live with

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1946445' date='Aug 11 2009, 07:38 PM']Thanks for the recommendations.

I've read many many books and stories about people and their ideas and beliefs about this kind of stuff. But none of it changes the way my brain works and the level of proof I need in order to satisfy my own doubts. It's just something I have to live with [/quote]

What would change it?

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1946178' date='Aug 11 2009, 12:56 PM']This is why I could never be religious.

If your faith were a purely private matter that would be one thing. But all of the Orthodox versions of the major monotheistic religions demand that their followers restrict the rights and liberties of other people. Like your Church and gay marriage. If you don't know, or at least have very strong rational grounds for your faith then how can you be part of the meddling in the lives of others? I'm not kidding when I say this is a major reason why I would not allow myself to return to religion. It just seems irresponsible to needlessly interfere in the liberties of others for an ideology you have adopted or maintained because it gives you "hope".[/quote]


[quote name='Hassan' post='1946190' date='Aug 11 2009, 01:13 PM']I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make it seem like you were shoving your religion down other people's throats. However your religion does seem to work to limit the rights of others. In that it seems to require its members to oppose things like gay marriage. Even if you personally don't work for this you are lending support to the religion which as a whole does oppose things like the state recognition of gay marriage. I don't mean to make this sound like an accusation. You seem like a nice person. There are many wonderful people here. However they all seem to be willing to either directly or indirectly limit the rights of other, curb their ability to pursue their dreams and goals, on the basis of a "faith", an ideology which they accept because it gives their lives meaning or hope or whatever. That seems to me to be wrong and irresponsible. I'm sure you are a better person than I am. So I don't mean to make it seem as though I'm suggesting such people are just selfish or morally bankrupt. I just think in this particular area it is selfish and irresponsible. I just don't understand how that doesn't bother more people of faith.[/quote]


[quote name='Hassan' post='1946191' date='Aug 11 2009, 01:19 PM']Every group and attempt to regulate society does inhibit the liberty of others. I think there, is a difference between making the best decision possible based on the evidence available, while admitting personal fallibility, and making such a decision based on an ideology not based on evidence but based on a personal need. Like hope or life direction. That doesn't apply to all religious people. But if you simply adopt the faith for personal needs and that faith demands limitations be placed on the rights of others I don't know what you call that other than irresponsible. It doesn't just apply to religions. I'd say the same about a dogmatic Marxist who adopts Marxism because it satisfies some emotion hole in his life.[/quote]
Stop shoving your ideologiess down my throat