Pledging allegiance to the USA flag...

[Timothy]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Mar 29 2005, 01:20 PM'] Exactly. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the Holy See instead.

I have a giant vatican flag and I love it. [/quote]
Alright MC Just!! Way to be!

[Timothy]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Mar 29 2005, 02:36 PM'] 1) Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

2) No one here seems to be saying that allegiance to country should overrule or even associate with allegiance to religion. [/quote]
I believe the Scripture you are referencing is referring to taxes (of which I pay much of and have no problems with).

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Timothy' date='Mar 29 2005, 03:21 PM'] Alright MC Just!! Way to be! [/quote]
Than go live at the Vatican. Why isn't that an option for you?

[Timothy]

Whoops, I didn’t see MC Just post about taxes. I agree completely with him.

It doesn’t matter where I live, my allegiance will always be with Christ. How can one be aligned with something that opposes the will of Christ?

I am a taxpayer, and born in the U.S. that makes me American. It concerns me that you feel that you should be a proud American in light of all the horrible things we are causing around the world right now. Just because one is American does not demand that the person be proud. A person should feel proud, because they feel they are accomplishing Christ will. Do you honestly feel that is what America is doing?

In regards to Catholicism and the death penalty, please show me where The Church does not choose life over death? Yes, the Church believes in a life sentence to jail, but the death penalty? We believe in the forgiveness of our sins through confessions. Please show me how killing someone accomplishes that?

[Cam42]

[quote]Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, [b]the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.[/b]

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent." (CCC 2267)[/quote]

[i]John Paul II, Evangelium vitae 56. 69 Cf. Gen 4:10.[/i]

[quote]This is the context in which to place the problem of the death penalty. On this matter there is a growing tendency, both in the Church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely. The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God's plan for man and society. The primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is "to redress the disorder caused by the offence". Public authority must redress the violation of personal and social rights by imposing on the offender an adequate punishment for the crime, as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way authority also fulfils the purpose of defending public order and ensuring people's safety, while at the same time offering the offender an incentive and help to change his or her behaviour and be rehabilitated.

[b]It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.[/b]

In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: "If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person". (EV 56)[/quote]

[i]Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 2266.
Cf. ibid.
No. 2267.[/i]

There ya go. Italics are citations.

Cam

[Timothy]

Cam, between us if you still think W. is a great guy then please read Cardinal Ratzinger’s Declaration. This is a great example of taking an oath or pledging allegiance to something not of Christ.

[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2652"]http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2652[/url]

[Timothy]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 29 2005, 03:54 PM'] the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent." (CCC 2267) [/quote]
Exactly, we have prisons in America don’t we? If somebody is placed in jail, would they still be harming society? Thus, the Church believes in life over death.

[Cam42]

Don't get me wrong, I am opposed to Freemasonry. I have even gone on record saying it.

And I agree with the Church. No questions asked. However, Bush isn't Catholic. He is not bound to the holdings of the Church.

And where is George Bush named in this? You are assuming an explict relation by your documentation. That is not the case. If you implicitly hold Bush accountable, show how he is to be held so, by the Catholic Church, as a non-Catholic.

Now, if we were talking about Jeb Bush, that is a different story.

Cam

[Cam42]

[quote]Exactly, we have prisons in America don’t we? If somebody is placed in jail, would they still be harming society? Thus, the Church believes in life over death.[/quote]

Don't misread what the Church teaches. Your analogy is flawed. The Church makes provision for the death penalty. It is not completely opposed to it. My statement:
[quote]We can expect him to ascribe to moral agents. However, you understanding of the death penalty is not a good analogy. The Church does not disagree with the concept of the death penalty, just the modern application of it, in most circumstances.[/quote]

It is in total agreement with the Church. You seem to be assuming that I agree with the death penalty. My acceptance of it is the same as that of the Church, nothing more, nothing less.

Cam

[Timothy]

I am not assuming or accusing that you agree with the death penalty. What I was saying is how can we justify that W. is a “good President” when he has done some much [b]W[/b].rong. Thus, how can we be proud of this country we it has traveled down the wrong path. I guess when it all comes down to it we can just look at Matthew 6:24 and that should clearify everything.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Timothy' date='Mar 29 2005, 04:43 PM'] I am not assuming or accusing that you agree with the death penalty. What I was saying is how can we justify that W. is a “good President” when he has done some much [b]W[/b].rong. Thus, how can we be proud of this country we it has traveled down the wrong path. I guess when it all comes down to it we can just look at Matthew 6:24 and that should clearify everything. [/quote]
4 more wars..

[Paphnutius]

First, nice avatar change Melchisadec.

Also I think we must look at it from another slant. Would you rather live in England right now? How about France? I know, Italy where porn is being sold in open vendors for every man, woman, and child to look at as they pass by. Would you rather be living in China? I know this does not make an arguement for our country being good except by comparing it to others. I am in no way trying to justify what our country does by comparing it to others, but truly we are not that bad off ethically. As a Catholics we are called to try to make our world a better place, that does not give us the right to nit pick everything that our country does wrong. We are to build it up to protect the rights of those living in it. You should be proud to live in a country where you can affect you government at least on a local level, then perhaps move up to national. Do not turn your noses up at what this country has to offer you. It is in bad shape, it needs work, do just that.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Paphnutius]

Sorry for posting twice in a row. This just suddenly jumped in my mind. Is everyone familiar with the John Chick pamphlets? The ones that bash everyone not Protestant, often on frabricated or half-truths. Anyway, in one of his pamphlets he goes on about how Catholic's alliegance is truly to the Vatican and we are like spies here in America and have loyalty to our country...Kinda made me laugh we are talking about just that.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 29 2005, 05:00 PM'] First, nice avatar change Melchisadec.

Also I think we must look at it from another slant. Would you rather live in England right now? How about France? I know, Italy where porn is being sold in open vendors for every man, woman, and child to look at as they pass by. Would you rather be living in China? I know this does not make an arguement for our country being good except by comparing it to others. I am in no way trying to justify what our country does by comparing it to others, but truly we are not that bad off ethically. As a Catholics we are called to try to make our world a better place, that does not give us the right to nit pick everything that our country does wrong. We are to build it up to protect the rights of those living in it. You should be proud to live in a country where you can affect you government at least on a local level, then perhaps move up to national. Do not turn your noses up at what this country has to offer you. It is in bad shape, it needs work, do just that. [/quote]
AMEN!

[jingsmile]

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Catholic first, yes, then American. But American nonetheless.

I believe America is the most hopeful country in the whole world, don't discount the value of the American dream, because some people don't have that. If Americans see something wrong with their country, they have the right to try and change that. Don't think that other countries in the world aren't facing the exact moral dilemnas that we are, only in the U.S. you have the right to speak about them and take action against them.

God bless the U.S.A.! (hee hee cheesy song reference!)



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