Pledging allegiance to the USA flag...

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Timothy' date='Mar 29 2005, 04:43 PM'] I am not assuming or accusing that you agree with the death penalty. What I was saying is how can we justify that W. is a “good President” when he has done some much [b]W[/b].rong. Thus, how can we be proud of this country we it has traveled down the wrong path. I guess when it all comes down to it we can just look at Matthew 6:24 and that should clearify everything. [/quote]
4 more wars..

[Paphnutius]

First, nice avatar change Melchisadec.

Also I think we must look at it from another slant. Would you rather live in England right now? How about France? I know, Italy where porn is being sold in open vendors for every man, woman, and child to look at as they pass by. Would you rather be living in China? I know this does not make an arguement for our country being good except by comparing it to others. I am in no way trying to justify what our country does by comparing it to others, but truly we are not that bad off ethically. As a Catholics we are called to try to make our world a better place, that does not give us the right to nit pick everything that our country does wrong. We are to build it up to protect the rights of those living in it. You should be proud to live in a country where you can affect you government at least on a local level, then perhaps move up to national. Do not turn your noses up at what this country has to offer you. It is in bad shape, it needs work, do just that.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Paphnutius]

Sorry for posting twice in a row. This just suddenly jumped in my mind. Is everyone familiar with the John Chick pamphlets? The ones that bash everyone not Protestant, often on frabricated or half-truths. Anyway, in one of his pamphlets he goes on about how Catholic's alliegance is truly to the Vatican and we are like spies here in America and have loyalty to our country...Kinda made me laugh we are talking about just that.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 29 2005, 05:00 PM'] First, nice avatar change Melchisadec.

Also I think we must look at it from another slant. Would you rather live in England right now? How about France? I know, Italy where porn is being sold in open vendors for every man, woman, and child to look at as they pass by. Would you rather be living in China? I know this does not make an arguement for our country being good except by comparing it to others. I am in no way trying to justify what our country does by comparing it to others, but truly we are not that bad off ethically. As a Catholics we are called to try to make our world a better place, that does not give us the right to nit pick everything that our country does wrong. We are to build it up to protect the rights of those living in it. You should be proud to live in a country where you can affect you government at least on a local level, then perhaps move up to national. Do not turn your noses up at what this country has to offer you. It is in bad shape, it needs work, do just that. [/quote]
AMEN!

[jingsmile]

[font="Optima"][color=red]

Catholic first, yes, then American. But American nonetheless.

I believe America is the most hopeful country in the whole world, don't discount the value of the American dream, because some people don't have that. If Americans see something wrong with their country, they have the right to try and change that. Don't think that other countries in the world aren't facing the exact moral dilemnas that we are, only in the U.S. you have the right to speak about them and take action against them.

God bless the U.S.A.! (hee hee cheesy song reference!)



[/color][/font]

[Socrates]

I'm surprised that so many are opposed to making the Pledge of Allegience.
The Pledge is simply an American citizen pledging that he is loyal to his own country. It does not imply that he accepts every decision any judge makes in the country.

If you find the whole concept of being American offensive, you should leave the country.

As to M.C. Just, American conservatives have always traditionally been in favor of the Pledge. It is liberals that tend to oppose it.

Word to Paphnutius. God bless the U.S.A.!

Edited March 29, 2005 by Socrates

[philothea]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Mar 29 2005, 05:52 PM']I'm surprised that so many are opposed to making the Pledge of Allegience.
The Pledege is simply an American citizen pledging that he is loyal to his own country.  It does not imply that he accepts every decision any judge makes in the country.[/quote]
My objection was in offering allegiance to a secular entity.

"Allegiance" -> obligation to serve ones LEIGE, i.e. to one's King or Lord. The term comes from medieval times.

All nations exist for their (more or less enlightened) self-interest. All of them at times oppose the will of God as expressed through the Church. This certainly has happened recently in the US.

Are people saying they will support or do things opposed to Church teaching if the US leadership asks it of them? No? Then what good is this "pledge"? Why not just be wholly subservient to God's will, which nearly always includes behing a law abiding, loyal citizen of whatever country you happen to live in.

Conditional pledges just confuse the matter.

[typo edit, pardon]

Edited March 29, 2005 by philothea

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='philothea' date='Mar 29 2005, 06:07 PM'] All nations exist for their (more or less enlightened) self-interest.  All of them at times oppose the will of God as expressed through the Church.  This certainly has happened recently in the US. 

[/quote]
All nations should, at least, exist for the protection of its citizens. We can see this going all the way back to Plato and to Aristotle who said that the state exists to provide its citizens all that they need to be well and happy. For a form of government to exist for the government's sake is a tyranny. I do not think that there are too many of those today that are not having to answer to the rest of the world. *cough*

[quote]Conditional pledges just confuse the matter.[/quote]

As far as conditional pledges only confusing things. I do not know I would be comfortable with an unconditional pledge. The only unconditional thing that actually exists that I know of is God's love for us. Everything else has terms and limits. I would not want to swear to anything unconditional except to follow God's will as you mentioned. That may, and for me does, include pledging alliegance to my country so far as it promotes the wellfare of its citizens. If my country stops existing for the citizens, for the individuals, the conditions of my allegiance is broken. When it stops doing that I will do what I can to help it get back on track to change things for the better. It is not a matter of going against the Church when confronted with what the country is doing. It is a matter of helping your country that you belong to do the right thing, which for us would include following God's will.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Socrates]

[quote name='Timothy' date='Mar 29 2005, 04:03 PM'] Exactly, we have prisons in America don’t we? If somebody is placed in jail, would they still be harming society? Thus, the Church believes in life over death. [/quote]
All this condemning of Bush, etc. because of the death penalty is absurd, especially by "conservative Catholics." Every medieval Catholic king has supported the death penalty, with the support of the Pope and the Church. Quit acting like the death penalty is some modern horror opposed to the Church suddenly imposed upon the world by Bush and the Republicans. Learn some history!

Gosh!!!

[CarpeDiem88]

Okay, what you people are saying has nothing to do with the politics of the country. You're not pledging to that. You're pledging to what you live in. What entity that has kept you alive. If you think a couple of ill-fated events are a problem and you don't want to pledge allegiance, then you need to get your head out of the sand. I just find it pure disrespect to have someone say that pledging allegiance to our flag is wrong. It's already under scrutiny from the stupid athiests, now why is it under scrutiny by Catholics? We of all people should have nothing against it. After all, it says UNDER GOD in it. We're UNDER GOD. Not saying our political officials are all with it, but I'm saying remember that the country is democratic and you're still alive.

If this is what it's coming to, I'm moving to Brazil.

Edited March 29, 2005 by CarpeDiem88

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]All this condemning of Bush, etc. because of the death penalty is absurd, especially by "conservative Catholics." Every medieval Catholic king has supported the death penalty, with the support of the Pope and the Church. Quit acting like the death penalty is some modern horror opposed to the Church suddenly imposed upon the world by Bush and the Republicans. Learn some history!
[/quote]

Amen! thats so true. I don't see whats wrong in pledeging alliegence to your own country. Im not claiming that the country or Bush is infallibile, but he is better then that Cafeteria Catholic. I love America. But I love Christ much much more. We have an American Flag in our Church, and after September 11th we sang America the Beatiful. It makes me sick when Catholics act, like that. Like they a supireor to non-catholics. We are all equally human. Protestants started this country and they were nice enough to share it with us. So I think all these snobby Catholics need to get over the fact that Non-Catholics live in America! Im not pro-freemassonry. When you act like that you give that idiot Jack Chick the idea that Catholics hate America, and they think its a horribble country. is the death penalty wrong? of course, but we as Catholics need to work to stop it. Same with Euthanasia and Abortion. Protestants are not Catholic and are therefore not bound by Church Law.
Just because you say the pledge of Alliegence dosen't mean you think that Bush is infallibile. We shouldn't segregate ourselves and be Catholic Elitetests, we should work to make this Country and the Whole world a better Place.


just puting my 2 cents in

May the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you,

Sam

[MichaelFilo]

Pledging allegiance to anything isn't exactly forbidden to God if it meets 2 conditions

1) The pledge does not put loyalty to whatever is pledged to above God.

2) The entity being pledged recognizes God's authority and is preferabbly a one that accepts the truth of the Catholic Church.

I make my pledge to the United States (even if I am an Iraqi born child) because patriotism is supported by the Church and is considered a virtue. However, I'll look more into the pledge in light of this thread and recent happenings. The biggest problem is my pledging allegiance to a republic, which is catered to serve the peoples wants, not the peoples good. This dependence on fallen men to know what is best for them (especially in a country where atheism and paganism have strong under-currents) is probably why I'd have with it. I don't really see any other reason to oppose it. The war had good intent (from the public-eye) and had ill effect. Like the atomic bomb, good intent (end a war), ill-effect (long lasting effects).

God bless,
Mikey

Edit: The Death Penalty is not wrong. Stop saying it is. That is very annoying.

Edited March 30, 2005 by MichaelFilo

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

whats annoying?

[MichaelFilo]

[quote]is the death penalty wrong? of course[/quote]

That. The Catholic Church has spoken again and again, the death penalty is NOT wrong. There were also some suggestions on how it should most effectivly be implemented.

God bless,
Mikey

[Paphnutius]

Quick word...

Not trying to discourage you to from hashing that out, but this is not the thread for that...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]The new Catechism of the Catholic Church reflects this tradition, stating that the death penalty is possible in cases of extreme gravity. However, the Catechism adds: "If bloodless means [that is, other than killing] are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person (#2267).[/quote]

your right.

sorry for my ignorance on the matter.

May the Grace of Christ be with you,

Sam

[Fidei Defensor]

Ho Hum. As long as the words "under God" stay, i guess i will pledge. That recognizes we are below God, and under his power. If it is taken out.. well, I will worry about that when it happens.

[MichaelFilo]

Sorry fo the disturbance, please continue about the pledge. I still defend it as perfectly ok but would ike a copy of the French Revolution's "oath" that was masonic and resulted in the martyrdom of some of the Catholics in France who rejected it. I wonder how close it resembles our pledge.

God bless,
Mikey

[musturde]

Well, we pledge allegiance to it to show our dedication for the good of our country. By pledging, we say that we will stand by our country through the good and bad and try to lead it to the better. Even if God isn't in it (which violates tradition).

[megrc]

While I respect and understand your points of view, we must also consider everything that this country HAS DONE FOR US. Yes, I agree that there have been some very messed up times, but there have also been some VERY messed up times in the Church, so if your not going to respect the flag and everything it stands for and has done for us, then why respect the Bible?