MichaelFilo Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 Meg, explain. Anything not done for Catholics isn't done for me, as I am part of the body. The Church has never had any really messed up times. The Church is never messed up.... people are messed up and in the church. I don't see what the connection between flag and bible... the flag changed many times, the bible is the same thing since the official canon.... please explain. God bless, Mikey
megrc Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 It's not an "official" connection, it's just that yes people mess up. That's what happened here, and we just have to continue to pray for them and hope that everything turns out the way God wants it to. Until someone stands up and says that this is wrong, then nothing is going to be done to fix it. We can write about it all we want to on here and onother sites, but the facts stay the same, nothing is going to be done until someone stands up for what they believe. I don't quite understand what the flag and the pledge have to do with the Terri case.
philothea Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Mar 29 2005, 07:41 PM'] Sorry fo the disturbance, please continue about the pledge. I still defend it as perfectly ok but would ike a copy of the French Revolution's "oath" that was masonic and resulted in the martyrdom of some of the Catholics in France who rejected it. I wonder how close it resembles our pledge. [/quote] In my brief research, this is all I found of the French Civil Oath that clergy were required to take: [i]Before the ceremony of consecration begins, the bishop elect shall take a solemn oath, in the presence of the municipal officers, of the people, and of the clergy, to guard with care the faithful of his diocese who are confided to him, to be loyal to the nation, the law, and the king, and to support with all his power the constitution decreed by the National Assembly and accepted by the king.[/i] Which in itself doesn't sound bad, except that the constitution said that the government ran the Church, banned monastic vows, etc.. [url="http://history.hanover.edu/texts/civilcon.htm"]http://history.hanover.edu/texts/civilcon.htm[/url] for text of the relevant part. HTH.
MichaelFilo Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 Thank you for that. And for the relationship there meg, look no further than the fact that terri is being allowed to die in the very country we pledge our allegiance to. I still don't see yoru connection however. I will continue to suppor thte pledge as it isn't wrong in and of itself, but I seriously have trouble with the republic (and democracy), but it's the best we can do for now. I still suport constitutional monarchies, it's jus that there aren't any really, except for England, but thats more of a joke really... God bless, Mikey
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 [quote]Thank you for that. And for the relationship there meg, look no further than the fact that terri is being allowed to die in the very country we pledge our allegiance to. I still don't see yoru connection however. I will continue to suppor thte pledge as it isn't wrong in and of itself, but I seriously have trouble with the republic (and democracy), but it's the best we can do for now. I still suport constitutional monarchies, it's jus that there aren't any really, except for England, but thats more of a joke really... God bless, Mikey [/quote] I agree with you that, for the most part, the people don't know whats good for them. So in a democracy the majority rules, and sometimes the majority is wrong. What is the difference in a counstitounal monarchy? please explain yours in Christ, Sam
Iacobus Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 [quote name='Tony' date='Mar 28 2005, 04:49 PM'] I still love America.. but the Terri Schiavo case makes me question a lot of stuff... like how a congress can vote to pass a bill, the President sign it, and the judges not honor it.... a bill designed to protect life at that [/quote] The courts did honor it. It went to the Federal system, all that the bill required. There is nothing in the law that required the courts to hear the case but they must consider hearing it. And I am not wide about saying hte Pledge. But our great USSC ruled in the 1940's that we don't have to but can.
Timothy Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 You all act as if this country gave us freedom, morals, and values. Also, that we should respect the flag because we owe it something. NO! That is as if saying, that Israel gave the Jews freedom from slavery in Egypt. Was Israel responsible for that? No, God gave those wonderful people freedom, so they would recognize Him as the Lord. I will take you as my own people, and you shall have me as your God. You will know that I, the LORD, am your God when I free you from the labor of the Egyptians and bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I will give it to you as your own possession - I, the LORD!" Exodus 6:7-8 [quote]Are people saying they will support or do things opposed to Church teaching if the US leadership asks it of them? No? Then what good is this "pledge"? Why not just be wholly subservient to God's will, which nearly always includes behing a law abiding, loyal citizen of whatever country you happen to live in. Conditional pledges just confuse the matter.[/quote] I think you are absolutely right. What maybe the biggest misunderstanding here is whom are you actually pledging too, the flag or God? If you pledge your unconditional love to Christ, and go out in the world to do his will, then when you see something wrong of course you try to change it. The American flag stands for many things, however if we pledge to the flag, does that not breed nationalism and patriotism. Does nationalism and patriotism breed angst amongst other people from other nations. For example, watching the Olympics and cheering for your country, do you love the others as you love yourself? Let me rephrase this, do you love other countries as you love your own country? No, you want your team (country) to win. Why? Maybe it is because you think that you are better than the others, or because you love your country more than the others. Sports are a great example, because it shows how patriotism and nationalism breed hate. Once nationalism and patriotism values are installed into young members of society it usually continues to grow within us. Thus, when we go to war, one is willing to win at all cost. Why? Because we are patriotic? Is it this country we belong to or Christ we belong to? Do not other people of other countries belong to Christ as well? If everyone would have one pledge ONLY ONE! Then we could begin to brake down these boundaries that separate different countries. If we would pledge only to Christ, then we could all work as one under Christ. However, when we add these additional pledges and become Patriotic, then that really does mess up the formula. [quote] Conditional pledges just confuse the matter.[/quote]
jasJis Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 Ummm. What's wrong the pledge? It's not 'conditional', it's ordered very well. "One Nation, under God" pretty much sums up the line of authority. We serve the nation if it serves God, we serve God as the ultimate Authority. Give to Cesar what is Cesar's, give to God what is God's. Democracy can result in Tyranny of the Majority. Republic can result in Tyrany of the Few. Dictatorship can result in Tyranny of the One. Monarchy can result in the Tyranny of the Related. Etc. Any form of Government can be misused and be Tyrannical. Duh.
philothea Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 [quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 30 2005, 12:11 PM'] What's wrong the pledge? It's not 'conditional', it's ordered very well. "One Nation, under God" pretty much sums up the line of authority. We serve the nation if it serves God, we serve God as the ultimate Authority. Give to Cesar what is Cesar's, give to God what is God's. [/quote] I sure hope it is conditional! I meant we who are loyal Catholics will only follow the will of the government on the [i]condition[/i] that it is not in conflict with the Church! IMO, "One Nation, under God" could also be taken to mean this nation is by default under God, and therefore one must be unconditionally loyal to it. If this weren't a known problem I wouldn't be so picky about it. Ever hear of the Americanist Heresy?
jasJis Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 [quote name='philothea' date='Mar 30 2005, 12:38 PM'] If this weren't a known problem I wouldn't be so picky about it. Ever hear of the Americanist Heresy? [/quote] It does [i]seem[/i] picky since I explained my meaning about conditional. It seemed that people felt 'conditional' was confusing. I meant that the pledge itself was ordered as saying allegience to Country being below allegience God which is why aetheists want the phrase removed. But I haven't heard of the Americanist Heresy. What's the skinny on that?
Socrates Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 [quote name='Timothy' date='Mar 30 2005, 11:42 AM'] The American flag stands for many things, however if we pledge to the flag, does that not breed nationalism and patriotism. Does nationalism and patriotism breed angst amongst other people from other nations. For example, watching the Olympics and cheering for your country, do you love the others as you love yourself? Let me rephrase this, do you love other countries as you love your own country? No, you want your team (country) to win. Why? Maybe it is because you think that you are better than the others, or because you love your country more than the others. Sports are a great example, because it shows how patriotism and nationalism breed hate. Once nationalism and patriotism values are installed into young members of society it usually continues to grow within us. Thus, when we go to war, one is willing to win at all cost. Why? Because we are patriotic? Is it this country we belong to or Christ we belong to? Do not other people of other countries belong to Christ as well? If everyone would have one pledge ONLY ONE! Then we could begin to brake down these boundaries that separate different countries. If we would pledge only to Christ, then we could all work as one under Christ. However, when we add these additional pledges and become Patriotic, then that really does mess up the formula. [/quote] I'm sorry, but much of this post is quite wrong-headed and absurd. I have had a similar argument before with one arguing that patriotism is evil, so I will repeat my arguments. True patriotism (love for one's country) is a natural [b]virtue[/b] and is recognized by the Church as such. It is akin to love of one's family. Citing sports such as the Olympics as examples of hate is absurd. Rooting for one's own country in an athletic contest does not neccessarily at all express hate for the other countries. It is no more evil than a parent rooting for his own son in a sports event. Is rooting for one's own school or alma mata in college sports an act of hate against other schools? Is cheering for the Washington Redskins against the Dallas Cowboys an act of hate (in the true sense) against the people of Dallas, TX? Back to the main topic, there is nothing wrong with patriotism, properly understood. It can be abused and twisted, like any good thing, for instance if love of country is so absolute that it takes presidence over love of God. Similarly, if love of family is exaggerated to where it interferes with love of God, this is wrong. However, special love of family and love of country (patriotism) are natural virtues, not vices, and should be cultivated in any Christian society. They do not necessitate hatred against others.
philothea Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 [quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 30 2005, 12:50 PM'] But I haven't heard of the Americanist Heresy. What's the skinny on that? [/quote] IIRC (I can't do a lot of research right now, sorry -- if you want more info let me know I and I will look up details later... if the impending tornado doesn't take out my house. It'll take me a little longer in that case. ) the Americanist Heresy was a problem for the Church around 1890-1900ish. It's the belief that the US has been especially blessed and priviledged by God, above other nations. It's sort of lingered in the American Catholic psyche ever since. Pope Leo XIII wrote a letter (gently) reprimanding this belief.
jasJis Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 A link to a succinct article would be the kewlest. I'll wait till you get back from Oz.
DojoGrant Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 Do you guys support the Knights of Columbus? Because their 4th degree is all about patriotism.
DojoGrant Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 Oh, and unless my memory if fuzzy, they frequently say the Pledge of Allegiance, and it was through a lot of their work that "Under God" was inserted into the pledge.
philothea Posted April 1, 2005 Posted April 1, 2005 [quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 30 2005, 02:29 PM']A link to a succinct article would be the kewlest. I'll wait till you get back from Oz.[/quote] [i]There's no place like home... there's no place like home...[/i] Now where was I? Oh yeah. Well, I don't know if I can suggest a useful article. You can look at wikipedia [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americanism_%28heresy%29"]here[/url] for a short summary. While that entry does cover the basics, it didn't make any sense to me until I read a whole bunch of other stuff too. The link to "Syllabus of Errors" on that page is helpful. One problem is that there are several different things that are called the "Americanist heresy" or "Americanism" and most people who use the term or write about it are trying to make a political point and so are slanting their story to their particular bias. Also, there were several (maybe) heresies that all got the same name. The most relevant official document is [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13teste.htm"]Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae[/url] [i]Concerning New Opinions, Virtue, Nature and Grace, with Regard to Americanism[/i] by Pope Leo XIII. It's not very long. And did you know that if you read enough encyclicals all in one day, you start to hallucinate? Maybe that's just me.... Have fun.
philothea Posted April 1, 2005 Posted April 1, 2005 [quote name='DojoGrant' date='Mar 30 2005, 04:32 PM'] Do you guys support the Knights of Columbus? Because their 4th degree is all about patriotism. [/quote] I imagine I'm one of the guys you're talking about, and I have to say I have never had any interaction at all with the Knights of Columbus -- I'm a convert, and there haven't been any active in any of the parishes I've attended. I looked around for info. Seems like a nice organization... though I do wonder what it's like in other countries, with their patron being Christopher Columbus, and the symbolic colors red white and blue! And yeah, you're right about the KoC getting "under God" inserted into the pledge. That was in the 50s, meant to serve as a contrast to Communism. I'm still pondering patriotism. I think I may make a poll, once I clarify my thoughts.
jasJis Posted April 1, 2005 Posted April 1, 2005 [quote name='philothea' date='Mar 31 2005, 09:47 PM'] [One problem is that there are several different things that are called the "Americanist heresy" or "Americanism" and most people who use the term or write about it are trying to make a political point and so are slanting their story to their particular bias. Also, there were several (maybe) heresies that all got the same name. The most relevant official document is [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13teste.htm"]Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae[/url] [i]Concerning New Opinions, Virtue, Nature and Grace, with Regard to Americanism[/i] by Pope Leo XIII. It's not very long. [/quote] Thanks for the link. I read it. Americanism in this encyclical has nothing to do with misplaced patritism. It has to do with the welcoming nature of Americans to other cultures that has led American Catholics to desire to tone down Doctrines and Dogmas in the hope that it will encourage seperated brethren (other Christians) to come back to Catholicism, true Christianity. It also calls Americanism the adventuring spirit to try new things and bring it to the Liturgy. I'm sure the Archbishop in LA hasn't read this recently! I'm not sure what it has to do with patriotism per se, but it does challenge Catholics not to embrace everything that it Americanism. I think this might be a great topic on another thread. I actually enjoyed reading this and think it is very appropriate for Catholics in America today.
kateri05 Posted April 1, 2005 Posted April 1, 2005 jas, what did you mean about the LA Archbishop? he's my cardinal, so i'm just curious..... unless you're refering to the tendency to "try new things" in liturgy in LA... cuz yea. boo. everyone does it
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now