An Invitation

[LittleLes]

Sorry Jamie,

Please review the messages on this thread. I did not state "definitively" that James was Jesus biological brother. I think someone else started that subthread.

Yes, there can sometimes be more than one meaning to the word aldelphos. But are you seriously suggesting that all the scripture and epistle writers as well as Josephus always meant cousin when they wrote brother?

But also of interest, please give me an example from the Greek (not Jerome's Latin) New Testament where the word adelphos is used to mean cousin.

Little Les

[Jaime]

[quote] και ερχεται η μητηρ αυτου και οι αδελφοι αυτου και εξω στηκοντες απεστειλαν προς αυτον καλουντες αυτον[/quote]


There ya go Littles!! In case you don't recognize it, its Matthew 3:31

[Cam42]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 5 2005, 08:49 AM'] Sorry Jamie,

Please review the messages on this thread. I did not state "definitively" that James was Jesus biological brother. I think someone else started that subthread.

Yes, there can sometimes be more than one meaning to the word aldelphos. But are you seriously suggesting that all the scripture and epistle writers as well as Josephus always meant cousin when they wrote brother?

But also of interest,  please give me an example from the Greek (not Jerome's Latin) New  Testament where the word adelphos is used to mean cousin.

Little Les [/quote]
Twisty noodle.


You said:
[quote]But, yes. The Gospels, Epistles, and even the writings of Josephus, the contemporary Jewish historian, all written in Greek which has a specific word for biological brother, claim that Jesus had brothers.[/quote]

What were you inferring there? My position? I don't think so brother Littleles.

Sorry, brother Littleles, but the Vulgate is authoritative. At the very least, it holds the same weight as any Greek Translation, if not more.

Cam

[LittleLes]

Hi hot stuff,

I'm sorry that I can't verify your claimed reference in Matthew 3:31. My Catholic bible has only 17 verses in Matthew 3, not 31.

But my question remains, do all the writers of the gospels, epistles, and Josephus really mean cousin when they use the word adelphos?

In the military, we sometimes (behind his back, of course) referred to the commander as "the man." But when I use the word "man," clearly I'm not always referring to this exception and always meaning the commander. Do you understand the difference?

LittleLes

[Jaime]

Oops sorry try Mark

[Cam42]

You are literally all over the place, which is it?

brother Littleles

[LittleLes]

Sorry Jamie,

Somehow I'm having difficulty with even your claim that Mark 3:13 is using the word adelphos to mean "cousin."

The New American Bible renders Mark 3:31 as

"His mother and his brothers arrived." Where are you getting the translation "cousins" from?

[url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark3.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark3.htm[/url]

[Jaime]

Littleles

You asked for a greek scripture passage using the word adelphos. I quoted it from a Greek bible.

Whaddya want?

[LittleLes]

Hi Jamie,

I think what I asked you to produce was the use of the word "adelphos" in a Greek New Testament, in which "aldelphos" meant "cousin."

LittleLes

[Jaime]

Please reread my greek post. I'd rather this did not get circular

[Cam42]

hot stuff,

stick and move.....stick and move

Cam

[LittleLes]

Hi God Conquers,

You asked "Will it ever be prevailed against."

It was. The original Christian community in Jerusalem headed by James, the brother of Jesus, formed following Christ's Ascension , was destroyed by the early second century. See the death of James and the Roman conquests of 70 A.D. and 130 A.D.

What then is labeled Christianity continued as the Pauline Christian communities and the Gnostic Christian communities. Their belief systems were somewhat different than the Jerusalem communty's and different from each other. The Gnostic communites were labeled as heretical about the 4th century, as I recall.

LittleLes

But I need to return to my review of the Christian "evidences."

Edited April 5, 2005 by LittleLes

[Jaime]

Littleles

I take it from your diversionary tactic that you are ready to admit error on the whole adelphos thing?

[Cam42]

[quote]et misimus Timotheum [b]fratrem[/b] nostrum et ministrum Dei in evangelio Christi ad confirmandos vos et exhortandos pro fide vestra (1 Thessalonians 3:2)[/quote]

[quote]και επεμψαμεν τιμοθεον τον [b]αδελφον[/b] ημων και συνεργον του θεου εν τω ευαγγελιω του χριστου εις το στηριξαι υμας και παρακαλεσαι υπερ της πιστεως υμων  (1 Thessalonians 3:2)[/quote]

fratrem and adelphos....brother and brother NOT used in the sense of blood brother, but rather in a fraternal sense.

You lose. Time to move on to another topic frater, oops, I mean adelphos, oops, I mean brother Littleles.

Cam

[LittleLes]

Hi hot stuff,

Please evidence my "diversionary tactics" used in the "adelphos thing."

I've proven my point, and you have been unable to provide a passage from the Greek New Testament in which the word "adelphos" was used meaning cousin.

It appears that you are now using the ploy of claiming you proved something when very clearly the exact opposite is the case. But that ploy is common with apologists who can present no evidence to support their assertions.

LittleLes

[LittleLes]

Sorry CAM,

In 1 Thes 3:2, Paul is referring to Timorty (affectionately) as a "brother" not cousin.

I believe my challenge in several places was to produce an instance from the Greek New Testament in which adelphos was translated as "cousin."

LittleLes

[Cam42]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 5 2005, 08:10 AM']I have been waiting for weeks for that to come up [u]brother[/u] Littleles.

You are wrong again [u]brother[/u] Littleles.  I would like to see where you come up with that argument brother Littleles.

Have you ever wondered why I have been calling you [u]BROTHER[/u] Littleles for the last month?  It is precisely to show that you have no legs to stand on [u]brother[/u] Littleles.

This is in direct relation to Genesis 14:16, 29:15.

Yes, the old argument of [i]adelphos[/i].  Do you know the problem with Greek?  The problem with Greek is translation.  You can find as many scholars to support our position as support yours.  Hardly definitive.

However, when we look at a static (not dead) language like Latin, we see that there can be no argument as to meaning.







It is clear that in the times in which these books were written; the word brother is used to mean more than blood brother.  There is nothing that proves your point.  Brother has many connotations, wouldn't you agree [u]brother[/u] Littleles?

Cam[/quote]
Well????

I've given the Latin and the Greek in an above post to support the Latin. Wanna try me brother Littleles?

You lost, let it go. New topic. Or better yet, how about we get back to the topic and have you answer the several questions posed to you.

Cam

N.B. Where did I give the argument that it meant cousin. That is between you and hot stuff. I am talking about the dual meaning of brother.

Brother Littleles.

[Cam42]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 5 2005, 07:26 AM'] Hi Ayed,

I'm afraid you are getting off topic  with your question.

But, yes. The Gospels, Epistles, and even the writings of Josephus, the contemporary Jewish historian, all written in Greek which has a specific word for biological brother, claim that Jesus had brothers.

But St. Jerome changed these "brothers" into 'cousins" for doctrinal reasons.

LittleLes [/quote]
The cousin idea is your assumption....I am telling you that your exegesis may be incorrect.

I have shown you that brother doesn't necessarily mean blood brother. We can't know, simply by the word adelphos what Mark means.

And incidentally, how can you know this, you admittedly don't speak Greek. Are you relying on someone's traditional teaching to prove this for you? And whose would that be traditional teaching would that be?

Cam

[LittleLes]

Hi CAM,

Are you then claiming that everytime the writers of the gospels, the epistles , and Josephus term Jesus' brothers as "adolphos" they really meant NOT his brothers? And does this apply to his sisters as well?

I sometimes call a young man "son," but when I refer to my own sons as son, does this mean that they are NOT my sons?

Isn't your and Jerome's claim a bit absurd?

Its a shame what apologists and Jerome have to try to maintain for doctrinal reasons. I couldn't keep a straight face trying to convince people that Jesus' brothers always means NOT his brothers.

LittleLes

Edited April 5, 2005 by LittleLes

[Cam42]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 5 2005, 11:19 AM'] Hi CAM,

Are you then claiming that everytime the writers of the gospels, the epistles , and Josephus term Jesus' brothers as "adolphos" they really meant NOT his brothers? And does this apply to his sisters as well?

I sometimes call a young man "son," but when I refer to my own sons as son, does this mean that they are NOT my sons?

Isn't your and Jerome's claim a bit absurd?

Its a shame what apologists and Jerome have to try to maintain for doctrinal reasons. I couldn't keep a straight face trying to convince people that Jesus' brothers always means NOT his brothers.

LittleLes [/quote]
And my point is proven.

Have a nice day brother Littleles. Have you not noticed that I have been calling you my brother for the last month or so?

Cam