LittleLes Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Hi CAN, It is always interesting to have apologists who fail to prove their assertion then claim that "my point is proven" when of course it is not. The fact that adelphos might rarely mean a comrade referred to affectionately as "brother" is not evidence that the term aldelphos is always used in this way. Nor is it evidence that when Jesus' adelphos were written of, it was always nonbrothers that was meant. To pretend that this was the case with Jesus - no matter which writer was referring to his brothers- is, of course, absurd. And I'm still waiting for hot stuff (you claim) to show me an instance in which "adelphos" is used in the New Testament to designate a cousin. This whole "Jesus' cousins" problem was created by the Jerome in the third century or later when the legend of the perpetual virginity of Mary first arose. Before that it wasn't an issue, since Jesus' "brothers" meant brothers. LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Moving along with Mark: (1) Cures of a demoniac, Simon's mother-in-law, other healings, a leper, a paralytic. (2) Call of Levi (3) Fasting and Sabbath questions, cure of withered hand. (4) Unclean spirits, Mark 3:11 "You are the Son of God." (5) Jesus' relatives claim "He is out of his mind" (Apparently they haven't heard of the Annunciation). (6) Jesus and Beelzehub. (7) "His mother and his brothers (and his sisters) arrived" "...whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother." NB If Jesus is not referring to his family, the passage losses its meaning). Or "His mother and his cousins arrived"???) (8) Parable of the sower, lamp, and mustard seed. (9) Jesus calms a storm at sea. (10) Healing of a demoniac at Gerasene (Mark 5:1) Or two demoniacs at Gadarene (Matt 8:28) See Mk 5:7 "Son of the Most High God." (11) Cure of Jarius' daughter and woman with a hemorrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 5 2005, 04:36 PM'] Hi CAN, It is always interesting to have apologists who fail to prove their assertion then claim that "my point is proven" when of course it is not. The fact that adelphos might rarely mean a comrade referred to affectionately as "brother" is not evidence that the term aldelphos is always used in this way. Nor is it evidence that when Jesus' adelphos were written of, it was always nonbrothers that was meant. To pretend that this was the case with Jesus - no matter which writer was referring to his brothers- is, of course, absurd. And I'm still waiting for hot stuff (you claim) to show me an instance in which "adelphos" is used in the New Testament to designate a cousin. This whole "Jesus' cousins" problem was created by the Jerome in the third century or later when the legend of the perpetual virginity of Mary first arose. Before that it wasn't an issue, since Jesus' "brothers" meant brothers. LittleLes [/quote] You still have not refuted my point. You have talked completely around it, but you have not addressed it. Actually, I think that in an offhanded way you supported my position. Yep, you did. [quote]The fact that adelphos might rarely mean a comrade referred to affectionately as "brother" is not evidence that the term aldelphos is always used in this way.[/quote] So, you are admitting that it can mean that. Which of course, I have shown that it it does in fact....so, since you can't prove that does we are at a standstill. Hence the problem with Greek that I mentioned earlier. Brothers has never meant simply brother, brother Littleles. Actually Christ speaks to that specifically. [quote]But he said in reply to the one who told him, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Mt. 12:48-50)[/quote] [quote]at ipse respondens dicenti sibi ait quae est mater mea et qui sunt fratres mei et extendens manum in discipulos suos dixit ecce mater mea et fratres mei quicumque enim fecerit voluntatem Patris mei qui in caelis est ipse meus et frater et soror et mater est (Mt. 12:48-50)[/quote] Now, I am sure that hot stuff can give us the Greek, but nevertheless, Christ refutes you. You are now utterly defeated. Give up. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted April 6, 2005 Author Share Posted April 6, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 5 2005, 09:35 AM'] Hi God Conquers, You asked "Will it ever be prevailed against." It was. The original Christian community in Jerusalem headed by James, the brother of Jesus, formed following Christ's Ascension , was destroyed by the early second century. See the death of James and the Roman conquests of 70 A.D. and 130 A.D. What then is labeled Christianity continued as the Pauline Christian communities and the Gnostic Christian communities. Their belief systems were somewhat different than the Jerusalem communty's and different from each other. The Gnostic communites were labeled as heretical about the 4th century, as I recall. LittleLes But I need to return to my review of the Christian "evidences." [/quote] So you practice the Christianity of pre-70 AD? And this christianity accepts women priests and doesn't believe Christ is God? riiiiiight..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 You know Tula there are two types of people in the world. Greek and people who wish they were Greek! 12:48 ο δε αποκριθεις ειπεν τω λεγοντι αυτω τις εστιν η μητηρ μου και τινες εισιν οι αδελφοι μου 12:49 και εκτεινας την χειρα αυτου επι τους μαθητας αυτου ειπεν ιδου η μητηρ μου και οι αδελφοι μου 12:50 οστις γαρ αν ποιηση το θελημα του πατρος μου του εν ουρανοις αυτος μου αδελφος και αδελφη και μητηρ εστιν Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 Can I borrow your windex, my elbow hurts!!!! Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 5 2005, 04:49 PM'] Moving along with Mark: (1) Cures of a demoniac, Simon's mother-in-law, other healings, a leper, a paralytic. (2) Call of Levi (3) Fasting and Sabbath questions, cure of withered hand. (4) Unclean spirits, Mark 3:11 "You are the Son of God." (5) Jesus' relatives claim "He is out of his mind" (Apparently they haven't heard of the Annunciation). (6) Jesus and Beelzehub. (7) "His mother and his brothers (and his sisters) arrived" "...whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother." NB If Jesus is not referring to his family, the passage losses its meaning). Or "His mother and his cousins arrived"???) (8) Parable of the sower, lamp, and mustard seed. (9) Jesus calms a storm at sea. (10) Healing of a demoniac at Gerasene (Mark 5:1) Or two demoniacs at Gadarene (Matt 8:28) See Mk 5:7 "Son of the Most High God." (11) Cure of Jarius' daughter and woman with a hemorrage. [/quote] And this makes sense how? Talk about shotgunning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayed Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 Hi, there Sorry for intervering your topic. Could you read this : Adelphia district of London, so called because it was laid out by four brothers of a family named Adam, from Gk. adelphos "brother," lit. "from the same womb," from copulative prefix a- "together with" + delphys "womb," perhaps related to dolphin (q.v.). The district was the site of a popular theater c.1882-1900, which gave its name to a style of performance. Philadelphia city in Pennsylvania, U.S., from Gk., lit. "brotherly love," from philos "loving" + adelphos "brother" (see Adelphi). Also the name of an ancient city in Lydia. Slang shortening Philly first attested 1891; Philadelphia lawyer "clever, shrewd attorney" attested from 1788 in London, said originally to have been applied to Andrew Hamilton, who obtained the famous acquittal of J.P. Zenger on libel charges in 1735 [url="http://www.etymonline.com/"]http://www.etymonline.com/[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 (edited) Lets examine the faulty logic CAM applies to the many New Testmants accounts which list Jesus' brothers. It is, of course, necesssary to maintain that none were real brothers if one wants to support the third or fourth century legend that Mary was ever virgin. Although the evangelists used the Greek word for brother (and sister) in describing members of Jesus' family, the argument is made that the word aldelphos might, in some cases, by used symbolically for other than a biological brother. (Jerome claimed that these were really cousins). Then the "might have" has to be changed to "always did" so that Jesus' brothers can never be biological brothers. Therein lies the flaw in reasoning. The term "mother" can also be used symbolically. Shall we then claim that the numerous passages referring to Mary as Jesus' mother, too, are only symbolic, and Mary really wan't Jesus' mother? LittleLes Edited April 6, 2005 by LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 Hi God Conquers, You are assuming facts not in evidence (yet). Right now I am reviewing the earliest Gospel, that of Mark, to see how the people of about 70 A.D. regarded Jesus, ie, as "messiah," as "God" or both. Later on, we will summarize the beliefs of Jesus' first followers. LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 [quote]The term "mother" can also be used symbolically. Shall we then claim that the numerous passages referring to Mary as Jesus' mother, too, are only symbolic, and Mary really wan't Jesus' mother? huh.gif[/quote] Oh absolutely!! Of course we have to ignore the whole Nativity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 6 2005, 02:35 AM'] Lets examine the faulty logic CAM applies to the many New Testmants accounts which list Jesus' brothers. It is, of course, necesssary to maintain that none were real brothers if one wants to support the third or fourth century legend that Mary was ever virgin. Although the evangelists used the Greek word for brother (and sister) in describing members of Jesus' family, the argument is made that the word aldelphos might, in some cases, by used symbolically for other than a biological brother. (Jerome claimed that these were really cousins). Then the "might have" has to be changed to "always did" so that Jesus' brothers can never be biological brothers. Therein lies the flaw in reasoning. The term "mother" can also be used symbolically. Shall we then claim that the numerous passages referring to Mary as Jesus' mother, too, are only symbolic, and Mary really wan't Jesus' mother? LittleLes [/quote] Is faulty logic like fuzzy math? You are absurd. Give up, you lost. Scripture proves you wrong. The Greek language proves you wrong, as does Latin. And finally, hot stuff and I have proven you wrong. Your assumptions are totally unprovable. Again, on whose authority do you make these assertions? I am using the text itself as mine, in three languages. Incidentally, one you say proves me wrong. Untrue. It is your premise that is incorrect. Therefore you cannot be right. This is fun, can we keep playing. The flaw is with you, not me....you are backsliding. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 (edited) Hi hot stuff and CAM, I think you've missed whole my point. If someone is going to maintain, against all reason, that every time the writers of the four Gospels, Paul's Epistles, Acts, and Josephus' history refer to Jesus' brothers (adelphos), they really meant someone other than Jesus' brothers, then, using the same reasoning, when Jesus' mother is referred to, it could mean someone other than his mother. In attempting to prove the perpetual virginity of Mary, an apologist might get away with claiming that "firstborn son" does not necessarily mean there were other sons, he might even get away with arguing that scripture which say 'he knew her not" until Jesus was born doesn't necessarily mean that Joesph had relations with Mary after Jesus was born, and "adelphos" might on rare occassion refer affectionately to a man not a brother, but claiming that whenever Jesus' brothers are mentioned using the Greek word for siblings, these are not his brothers, is a bit absurd. LittleLes Edited April 7, 2005 by LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 Varying plausible theories that are offered by theologians Adelphos can also mean cousin Adelphos has been used in regards to fraternal love not necessarily biological Families worked and travelled in clans. The children in those clans were considered adelphoi even though there was no blood relation LittleLes theory If the bible uses adelphos once as a biological brother, IT MUST USE THE SAME DEFINITION EACH AND EVERY TIME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 (edited) Hi Jamie, No. Les' theory (and common sense) concludes that, while not every time, but the majority of the many cases when the the four evangelists, Paul, Acts, and even Josephus refere to Jesus' brothers (as "adolphos"), "brother," not cousin and not an affectionate expression, but actual brother is meant. I'm sorry if this conflicts with you belief system, but that's reality. LittleLes Edited April 7, 2005 by LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts