the Problem of Good.

[theculturewarrior]

How can good exist, if there is no God?

[God Conquers]

wow... that is very interesting.

[God Conquers]

I'd might even go further.... if it does exist, why and what is it?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 11:27 AM'] How can good exist, if there is no God? [/quote]
Its a silly question essentially because to you, good emanates from god. To me, good is inherent in man and has nothing to do with god. My answer is can god exists without man.

[theculturewarrior]

You haven't answered...you asked another question.

Where does good come from if it doesn't come from God?

[theculturewarrior]

Why is good inherent in man? This seems to deny the problem of evil.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 11:35 AM'] You haven't answered...you asked another question.

Where does good come from if it doesn't come from God? [/quote]
Its inherent in man, because god doesnt exist.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 11:36 AM'] Why is good inherent in man? This seems to deny the problem of evil. [/quote]
Not at all. Evil is also inherrent in man.

[theculturewarrior]

Well...

The way I'm thinking of good, includes man's "inherent" goodness (although victims of sexual assault might disagree with you on that point), but I'm approaching this from both cosmologic and anthropocentric point of view.

For example, atheists, when they cite the problem of evil, say things like "how can God let tsunamis happen." I agree, tsunamis are horrible, but God brought peace and prosperity to another part of the world, and as a result, humanitarian aid is going to the affected regions.

We have a civilization that seems to have a "vestigial" sort of compassion on the less fortunate, at least in this instance. What evolutionary purpose does humanitarian aid have? And then, we have a Universe that seems fine tuned to support human life, with the resources necessary to provide humanitarian aid.

Is your answer, "just because?"

[theculturewarrior]

Mother Teresa and her contemplative sisters have done things like pulling the dying off the streets and picking the worms off their bodies so they can die in peace.

Is this compassion a quality that is inherent in man? If so, why is man inherently good and evil? Where does good come from?

Why was Mother Teresa exceptionally good? If it was inherent, and did not spring from the Holy Spirit, why do people who strive to be good fall short of Mother Teresa's heroism?

Is it evolutionary? Why do humans die for their children, but fish eat their young?

"It's inherent in man" sounds like "just because."

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 11:37 AM'] Its inherent in man, because god doesnt exist. [/quote]
this isn't an argument.

I can just as easily say, "Atheists wallow in a personal hell of their own design, because God exists."

But to leave it at that is just unsubstantiated opinion.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 11:52 AM']



[/quote]
[quote]The way I'm thinking of good, includes man's "inherent" goodness (although victims of sexual assault might disagree with you on that point), but I'm approaching this from both cosmologic and anthropocentric point of view.
[/quote]

Like I said, evil is also inherrent in men. I dont believe a little demon told you to sexual assault that women. It a personal choice that is made out of selffishness,(among many things) and to seek power over another.

[quote]For example, atheists, when they cite the problem of evil, say things like "how can God let tsunamis happen." I agree, tsunamis are horrible, but God brought peace and prosperity to another part of the world, and as a result, humanitarian aid is going to the affected regions.[/quote]

God created evil , according to scripture.

[quote]
We have a civilization that seems to have a "vestigial" sort of compassion on the less fortunate, at least in this instance. What evolutionary purpose does humanitarian aid have? And then, we have a Universe that seems fine tuned to support human life, with the resources necessary to provide humanitarian aid.[/quote]

I dont know what you mean by evolutionary purpose. Why do we help our fellow man, for many reasons. Compassion, empathy, selflessness.

[quote]Is your answer, "just because?"[/quote]

I think thats the answer to why has god always existed.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 02:37 PM'] this isn't an argument.
[/quote]
Your argument is based on your worldview, so is mine. Its perfectly valid.

[quote]I can just as easily say, "Atheists wallow in a personal hell of their own design, because God exists."[/quote]

You are entitled to your opinion, even if its based out of your own predjudices.

[jrndveritatis]

[quote]God created evil , according to scripture.[/quote]

Where does Scripture say this?

The Genesis account includes no mention of God creating evil. After every act of creation, God notes that it is very good.

Certainly God allows evil. This might sound like a copout, but it is not.

It is fundamentally and philosophically distinct from creating evil.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 02:51 PM'] Your argument is based on your worldview, so is mine. Its perfectly valid.



You are entitled to your opinion, even if its based out of your own predjudices. [/quote]
I'm not sure either of us have an argument.

I was just asking some questions.

I guess we're like children. One asks "why" too many times, so the other just says "because."

Interesting to see that atheism is something you take on faith.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 02:25 PM']





"It's inherent in man" sounds like "just because." [/quote]
[quote]
Is this compassion a quality that is inherent in man? If so, why is man inherently good and evil? Where does good come from?[/quote]

Some see a cause and are willing to dedicate their lives for. This is not limited to theist alone. I volunteer almost 20 hours a week to help under privliledge kids get a better chance on being sucessful. It brings me much joy to do this. Its springs forth from my own personal views on life and philosophoes, among many things like. Life experience, emotions. Its not a one liner answer.

[quote]Why was Mother Teresa exceptionally good? If it was inherent, and did not spring from the Holy Spirit, why do people who strive to be good fall short of Mother Teresa's heroism?[/quote]

I dont think other wonderful people fall short of mother tereasa. Gandhi, Martin luther king and so on are true examples of the compassion of humanity. Lets not forget the silent heroes like those who protect us everyday, those who work to find cures for deseases. It is a multitude of people who work together to make our world a better place for us all.

[quote]Is it evolutionary? Why do humans die for their children, but fish eat their young?
[/quote]

Why doesn't every animal in the world, kill itself off. What prevents animals from going crazy and eating their own species to extinction? Why haven't the apes in africa, killed each other off into extinction? Naturalism holds the answers to these questions. Survival is a key part of life, and its coded into our makeup.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 02:37 PM'] I can just as easily say, "Atheists wallow in a personal hell of their own design, because God exists." [/quote]
Just for the record, this is not my opinion. It was my experience at one point, when I was an atheist, but I don't know how common or universal it is.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jrndveritatis' date='Apr 9 2005, 02:51 PM']
Where does Scripture say this?

The Genesis account includes no mention of God creating evil. After every act of creation, God notes that it is very good.

Certainly God allows evil. This might sound like a copout, but it is not.

It is fundamentally and philosophically distinct from creating evil. [/quote]
Isiah 45:7

[quote] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. [/quote]

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:00 PM'] Interesting to see that atheism is something you take on faith. [/quote]
The only reason theist say atheist rely on faith is only to try to upset them. Faith requires no evidence. Atheism does. Its very simple. I've seen many debates on this, and I could send you some if you'd like to see this argument pulled apart.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:02 PM'] Why doesn't every animal in the world, kill itself off. What prevents animals from going crazy and eating their own species to extinction? Why haven't the apes in africa, killed each other off into extinction? Naturalism holds the answers to these questions. Survival is a key part of life, and its coded into our makeup. [/quote]
Some of the virtues that we hold most dear have only the flimsiest psychobiological explanation. Why is it that when somebody dies for a cause, their memory is celebrated and others are inspired to do likewise? I'm thinking of both Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

If man's compassion is driven only by the instinct for self-preservation, why have so many Christians died for their faiths, in places where they knew Christianity held a penalty of death or worse? Places like China, the Middle East, and Ancient Rome?

My question, is, if every animal is motivated by the base instinct for survival, to the point that they will eat their young to avoid starvation, why does man risk death to promote good? Why do people die for God? Why will a starving man give his last piece of bread to a starving child?