the Problem of Good.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 02:25 PM']





"It's inherent in man" sounds like "just because." [/quote]
[quote]
Is this compassion a quality that is inherent in man? If so, why is man inherently good and evil? Where does good come from?[/quote]

Some see a cause and are willing to dedicate their lives for. This is not limited to theist alone. I volunteer almost 20 hours a week to help under privliledge kids get a better chance on being sucessful. It brings me much joy to do this. Its springs forth from my own personal views on life and philosophoes, among many things like. Life experience, emotions. Its not a one liner answer.

[quote]Why was Mother Teresa exceptionally good? If it was inherent, and did not spring from the Holy Spirit, why do people who strive to be good fall short of Mother Teresa's heroism?[/quote]

I dont think other wonderful people fall short of mother tereasa. Gandhi, Martin luther king and so on are true examples of the compassion of humanity. Lets not forget the silent heroes like those who protect us everyday, those who work to find cures for deseases. It is a multitude of people who work together to make our world a better place for us all.

[quote]Is it evolutionary? Why do humans die for their children, but fish eat their young?
[/quote]

Why doesn't every animal in the world, kill itself off. What prevents animals from going crazy and eating their own species to extinction? Why haven't the apes in africa, killed each other off into extinction? Naturalism holds the answers to these questions. Survival is a key part of life, and its coded into our makeup.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 02:37 PM'] I can just as easily say, "Atheists wallow in a personal hell of their own design, because God exists." [/quote]
Just for the record, this is not my opinion. It was my experience at one point, when I was an atheist, but I don't know how common or universal it is.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jrndveritatis' date='Apr 9 2005, 02:51 PM']
Where does Scripture say this?

The Genesis account includes no mention of God creating evil. After every act of creation, God notes that it is very good.

Certainly God allows evil. This might sound like a copout, but it is not.

It is fundamentally and philosophically distinct from creating evil. [/quote]
Isiah 45:7

[quote] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. [/quote]

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:00 PM'] Interesting to see that atheism is something you take on faith. [/quote]
The only reason theist say atheist rely on faith is only to try to upset them. Faith requires no evidence. Atheism does. Its very simple. I've seen many debates on this, and I could send you some if you'd like to see this argument pulled apart.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:02 PM'] Why doesn't every animal in the world, kill itself off. What prevents animals from going crazy and eating their own species to extinction? Why haven't the apes in africa, killed each other off into extinction? Naturalism holds the answers to these questions. Survival is a key part of life, and its coded into our makeup. [/quote]
Some of the virtues that we hold most dear have only the flimsiest psychobiological explanation. Why is it that when somebody dies for a cause, their memory is celebrated and others are inspired to do likewise? I'm thinking of both Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

If man's compassion is driven only by the instinct for self-preservation, why have so many Christians died for their faiths, in places where they knew Christianity held a penalty of death or worse? Places like China, the Middle East, and Ancient Rome?

My question, is, if every animal is motivated by the base instinct for survival, to the point that they will eat their young to avoid starvation, why does man risk death to promote good? Why do people die for God? Why will a starving man give his last piece of bread to a starving child?

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:06 PM'] The only reason theist say atheist rely on faith is only to try to upset them. Faith requires no evidence. Atheism does. Its very simple. I've seen many debates on this, and I could send you some if you'd like to see this argument pulled apart. [/quote]
Okay.

I was just wondering at your earlier non-answers. I don't normally assume atheists take their worldview on faith. But I thought that's what you were saying.

[theculturewarrior]

BTW I wasn't trying to upset you.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:14 PM'] Some of the virtues that we hold most dear have only the flimsiest psychobiological explanation. Why is it that when somebody dies for a cause, their memory is celebrated and others are inspired to do likewise? I'm thinking of both Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

If man's compassion is driven only by the instinct for self-preservation, why have so many Christians died for their faiths, in places where they knew Christianity held a penalty of death or worse? Places like China, the Middle East, and Ancient Rome?

My question, is, if every animal is motivated by the base instinct for survival, to the point that they will eat their young to avoid starvation, why does man risk death to promote good? Why do people die for God? Why will a starving man give his last piece of bread to a starving child? [/quote]
People die for what they believe in. I would die for secular humanism if we were to be persecuted. I would die for my cause and those like myself. Because we deserve life and freedom and the ability to coexist here on earth. I would die defending my family. I would give my life for my wifes any day. Its love, compassion , and selflessness.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:24 PM'] People die for what they believe in. I would die for secular humanism if we were to be persecuted. I would die for my cause and those like myself. Because we deserve life and freedom and the ability to coexist here on earth. I would die defending my family. I would give my life for my wifes any day. Its love, compassion , and selflessness. [/quote]
I don't doubt that you are a good person. I do doubt that you have a naturalistic reason to be one!

[Semalsia]

[quote]How can good exist, if there is no God?[/quote]

It can't. Neither can evil. It makes no sense to me to say otherwise.

We just call things that we abhor evil. Humans are in many ways alike so those things are in large part the same too. Sometimes they are not.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:04 PM'] Isiah 45:7

[/quote]
Just for the record...I have checked this out in a few different translations and they translate that as woe or disaster, not evil. What translation are you using? That does play a part in the crebility. The ones that I did find that said evil can usually be taken as woe and discord. This was to be seen as God creating such things as tsunamis and the like that inflict an "evil" upon Earth. I do not think that it was to be taken literally as in: evil the absence of good.

[Paphnutius]

Speaking of which, how do you define evil and good Melchesidec?

[jasJis]

mel,
how can humanity exist if there is no God? faith does rely on evidence. the odds of us existing, the odds of the order that is existence is evidence of directed creation, directed evolution. the mere fact that there is a 'First Cause' points to God's existence. Faith is not without reason.

A tail wag exists becasue there is a dog. Evidence of a tail wag does make the existence of a dog a requirement, but the existence of the dog is not subject to the tail wag. The tail does not wag the dog. Man does not create God.

[Cam42]

[quote]How can good exist, if there is no God?[/quote]

Quite simply put, it can't. Aquinas states:
[quote]Every being that is not God is God's creature. Now every creature of God is good (1 Tim. 4:4): and God is the greatest good. Therefore every being is good. (ST I, 5,3)[/quote]

What does that mean? It means taht we are not God, but that goodness resided in God. We are creations or creatures (same etymology) of God and therefore we are good, because we are a creation of God.

[quote]God is the supreme good simply, and not only as existing in any genus or order of things. For good is attributed to God, as was said in the preceding article, inasmuch as all desired perfections flow from Him as from the first cause....Now the likeness of an effect in the univocal cause is found uniformly....Therefore as good is in God as in the first, but not the univocal, cause of all things, it must be in Him in a most excellent way; and therefore He is called the supreme good. (ST I, 6, 2)[/quote]

This really answers your question GC. God is the supreme good. Since he is the supreme good, it cannot exist without him.

And this is how it relates to man.
[quote] The supreme good does not add to good any absolute thing, but only a relation. Now a relation of God to creatures, is not a reality in God, but in the creature; for it is in God in our idea only: as, what is knowable is so called with relation to knowledge, not that it depends on knowledge, but because knowledge depends on it. Thus it is not necessary that there should be composition in the supreme good, but only that other things are deficient in comparison with it. (ST I, 6,2)[/quote]

Now as we look and see that God is the supreme good; we can see that in relation to God, we relate with God in the attribute of goodness, through our reason. We are not the supreme good, but a lesser comparison of it, ie. being made in the image and likeness of God. We are not God, but like God. So, if goodness existed without God, then there would be no need for God.

Cam

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 10 2005, 08:39 AM'] Just for the record...I have checked this out in a few different translations and they translate that as woe or disaster, not evil. What translation are you using? That does play a part in the crebility. The ones that I did find that said evil can usually be taken as woe and discord. This was to be seen as God creating such things as tsunamis and the like that inflict an "evil" upon Earth. I do not think that it was to be taken literally as in: evil the absence of good. [/quote]
So you are telling me, the creator of everything did not create evil? Did god create hell? Did god create the devil?