the Problem of Good.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:06 PM'] The only reason theist say atheist rely on faith is only to try to upset them. Faith requires no evidence. Atheism does. Its very simple. I've seen many debates on this, and I could send you some if you'd like to see this argument pulled apart. [/quote]
Okay.

I was just wondering at your earlier non-answers. I don't normally assume atheists take their worldview on faith. But I thought that's what you were saying.

[theculturewarrior]

BTW I wasn't trying to upset you.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:14 PM'] Some of the virtues that we hold most dear have only the flimsiest psychobiological explanation. Why is it that when somebody dies for a cause, their memory is celebrated and others are inspired to do likewise? I'm thinking of both Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

If man's compassion is driven only by the instinct for self-preservation, why have so many Christians died for their faiths, in places where they knew Christianity held a penalty of death or worse? Places like China, the Middle East, and Ancient Rome?

My question, is, if every animal is motivated by the base instinct for survival, to the point that they will eat their young to avoid starvation, why does man risk death to promote good? Why do people die for God? Why will a starving man give his last piece of bread to a starving child? [/quote]
People die for what they believe in. I would die for secular humanism if we were to be persecuted. I would die for my cause and those like myself. Because we deserve life and freedom and the ability to coexist here on earth. I would die defending my family. I would give my life for my wifes any day. Its love, compassion , and selflessness.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:24 PM'] People die for what they believe in. I would die for secular humanism if we were to be persecuted. I would die for my cause and those like myself. Because we deserve life and freedom and the ability to coexist here on earth. I would die defending my family. I would give my life for my wifes any day. Its love, compassion , and selflessness. [/quote]
I don't doubt that you are a good person. I do doubt that you have a naturalistic reason to be one!

[Semalsia]

[quote]How can good exist, if there is no God?[/quote]

It can't. Neither can evil. It makes no sense to me to say otherwise.

We just call things that we abhor evil. Humans are in many ways alike so those things are in large part the same too. Sometimes they are not.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:04 PM'] Isiah 45:7

[/quote]
Just for the record...I have checked this out in a few different translations and they translate that as woe or disaster, not evil. What translation are you using? That does play a part in the crebility. The ones that I did find that said evil can usually be taken as woe and discord. This was to be seen as God creating such things as tsunamis and the like that inflict an "evil" upon Earth. I do not think that it was to be taken literally as in: evil the absence of good.

[Paphnutius]

Speaking of which, how do you define evil and good Melchesidec?

[jasJis]

mel,
how can humanity exist if there is no God? faith does rely on evidence. the odds of us existing, the odds of the order that is existence is evidence of directed creation, directed evolution. the mere fact that there is a 'First Cause' points to God's existence. Faith is not without reason.

A tail wag exists becasue there is a dog. Evidence of a tail wag does make the existence of a dog a requirement, but the existence of the dog is not subject to the tail wag. The tail does not wag the dog. Man does not create God.

[Cam42]

[quote]How can good exist, if there is no God?[/quote]

Quite simply put, it can't. Aquinas states:
[quote]Every being that is not God is God's creature. Now every creature of God is good (1 Tim. 4:4): and God is the greatest good. Therefore every being is good. (ST I, 5,3)[/quote]

What does that mean? It means taht we are not God, but that goodness resided in God. We are creations or creatures (same etymology) of God and therefore we are good, because we are a creation of God.

[quote]God is the supreme good simply, and not only as existing in any genus or order of things. For good is attributed to God, as was said in the preceding article, inasmuch as all desired perfections flow from Him as from the first cause....Now the likeness of an effect in the univocal cause is found uniformly....Therefore as good is in God as in the first, but not the univocal, cause of all things, it must be in Him in a most excellent way; and therefore He is called the supreme good. (ST I, 6, 2)[/quote]

This really answers your question GC. God is the supreme good. Since he is the supreme good, it cannot exist without him.

And this is how it relates to man.
[quote] The supreme good does not add to good any absolute thing, but only a relation. Now a relation of God to creatures, is not a reality in God, but in the creature; for it is in God in our idea only: as, what is knowable is so called with relation to knowledge, not that it depends on knowledge, but because knowledge depends on it. Thus it is not necessary that there should be composition in the supreme good, but only that other things are deficient in comparison with it. (ST I, 6,2)[/quote]

Now as we look and see that God is the supreme good; we can see that in relation to God, we relate with God in the attribute of goodness, through our reason. We are not the supreme good, but a lesser comparison of it, ie. being made in the image and likeness of God. We are not God, but like God. So, if goodness existed without God, then there would be no need for God.

Cam

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 10 2005, 08:39 AM'] Just for the record...I have checked this out in a few different translations and they translate that as woe or disaster, not evil. What translation are you using? That does play a part in the crebility. The ones that I did find that said evil can usually be taken as woe and discord. This was to be seen as God creating such things as tsunamis and the like that inflict an "evil" upon Earth. I do not think that it was to be taken literally as in: evil the absence of good. [/quote]
So you are telling me, the creator of everything did not create evil? Did god create hell? Did god create the devil?

[Melchisedec]

[quote]how can humanity exist if there is no God?[/quote]

You presuppose a god simply because thats the best theory you have to explain it. I'm content with accepting its mystery. I can come up with many theories on how, but they are just assumptions like yours. I dont reject the idea of a creator, I just dont have 'faith' to believe that the countless of men who wrote various religious books were speaking and working through god. Faith would require me to choose which ones I thought were in fact working with god.

[quote]the odds of us existing, the odds of the order that is existence is evidence of directed creation, directed evolution.  the mere fact that there is a 'First Cause' points to God's existence.  Faith is not without reason.[/quote]

We do not know this first cause or it there ever was a first cause. We are still learning so much about our universe. We don't know if the big bang is for certain. We are constantly revising our theories of cosmology. Why couldn't the universe have always existed, why must there be a first cause? Some say, time never had a beginning. I think we are far away from answering those questions. Its a metaphysical argument, nothing more.

[quote]faith does rely on evidence.[/quote]

You dont understand faith. Faith means to believe WITHOUT evidence. To say otherwise, is to contradict the very meaning of the word.

Edited April 10, 2005 by Melchisedec

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 10 2005, 08:40 AM'] Speaking of which, how do you define evil and good Melchesidec? [/quote]
evil = selfishness
good = selflessness

[Fidei Defensor]

God created Lucifer and the angels. They have free will. Lucifer decided he was better than God and rebelled. God created Hell just as a place for satan(lucifer) to go. Satan makes it evil. Anyone who chooses to follow satan or reject God can then go live in hell because that is where God is not. That is what they want - to be away from God - so they get it.

[Cam42]

[quote]So you are telling me, the creator of everything did not create evil?[/quote]


That is a tricky question. Evil is the privation of good.

Aquinas states:
[quote]It must be said that every evil in some way has a cause. For evil is the absence of the good, which is natural and due to a thing. But that anything fail from its natural and due disposition can come only from some cause drawing it out of its proper disposition. For a heavy thing is not moved upwards except by some impelling force; nor does an agent fail in its action except from some impediment. But only good can be a cause; because nothing can be a cause except inasmuch as it is a being, and every being, as such, is good. (ST I, 49, 1)[/quote]

Evil has no direct cause, but only an accidental cause. God does not intend for evil to happen, but rather it happens as a deficency of the good. In other words, evil happens by accidental means. It is not intended.

God didn't intend for Satan to be Satan, but Satan chose evil over good as a deficient action.

Again as Aquinas rightly states,
[quote]Evil has a deficient cause in voluntary things otherwise than in natural things. For the natural agent produces the same kind of effect as it is itself, unless it is impeded by some exterior thing; and this amounts to some defect belonging to it. Hence evil never follows in the effect, unless some other evil pre-exists in the agent or in the matter, as was said above. But in voluntary things the defect of the action comes from the will actually deficient, inasmuch as it does not actually subject itself to its proper rule. This defect, however, is not a fault, but fault follows upon it from the fact that the will acts with this defect. (ST I, 49, 1)[/quote]

Notice that the deficient cause is voluntary. Free will.

Cam

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 10 2005, 11:32 AM']





[/quote]
[quote]That is a tricky question.  Evil is the privation of good.  [/quote]

Its pretty easy actually. God creates everything. Man could not chose evil if it never existed.

[quote]Aquinas states:

Evil has no direct cause, but only an accidental cause. God does not intend for evil to happen, but rather it happens as a deficency of the good.  In other words, evil happens by accidental means.  It is not intended.[/quote]

Sounds like a cop out for god. You got any scripture to back this up? Im curious.

[quote]God didn't intend for Satan to be Satan, but Satan chose evil over good as a deficient action[/quote]

So your telling me, god didn't know satan would reject him when he created him?

[Cam42]

[quote]Sounds like a cop out for god. You got any scripture to back this up? Im curious.[/quote]

What you are talking about isn't necessarily a theological question. It is more philosophical. Scripture doesn't play a direct part in this discussion.

However, Wisdom 1:11-15 does a good job to sum it up.

[quote]11 Keep yourselves therefore from murmuring, which profiteth nothing, and refrain your tongue from detraction, for an obscure speech shall not go for nought: and the mouth that belieth, killeth the soul. 12 Seek not death in the error of your life, neither procure ye destruction by the works of your hands. [b]13 For God made not death, neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.[/b] 14 For he created all things that they might be: and he made the nations of the earth for health: and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor kingdom of hell upon the earth. 15 For justice is perpetual and immortal. (Wis 1:11-15)[/quote]

Cam

[theculturewarrior]

bump for atheist newbies.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='theculturewarrior']How can good exist, if there is no God?[/quote]

"Good" doesn't exist. Therefore no god is needed.

[Noel's angel]

explain to me how good does not exist

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 8 2005, 02:04 PM'] explain to me how good does not exist [/quote]
Indeed. What is your definition of good and justify your claim for saying that it does not exist rather than simply stating it as though it were self-evident.