Melchisedec Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 (edited) [quote]how can humanity exist if there is no God?[/quote] You presuppose a god simply because thats the best theory you have to explain it. I'm content with accepting its mystery. I can come up with many theories on how, but they are just assumptions like yours. I dont reject the idea of a creator, I just dont have 'faith' to believe that the countless of men who wrote various religious books were speaking and working through god. Faith would require me to choose which ones I thought were in fact working with god. [quote]the odds of us existing, the odds of the order that is existence is evidence of directed creation, directed evolution. the mere fact that there is a 'First Cause' points to God's existence. Faith is not without reason.[/quote] We do not know this first cause or it there ever was a first cause. We are still learning so much about our universe. We don't know if the big bang is for certain. We are constantly revising our theories of cosmology. Why couldn't the universe have always existed, why must there be a first cause? Some say, time never had a beginning. I think we are far away from answering those questions. Its a metaphysical argument, nothing more. [quote]faith does rely on evidence.[/quote] You dont understand faith. Faith means to believe WITHOUT evidence. To say otherwise, is to contradict the very meaning of the word. Edited April 10, 2005 by Melchisedec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 10 2005, 08:40 AM'] Speaking of which, how do you define evil and good Melchesidec? [/quote] evil = selfishness good = selflessness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 God created Lucifer and the angels. They have free will. Lucifer decided he was better than God and rebelled. God created Hell just as a place for satan(lucifer) to go. Satan makes it evil. Anyone who chooses to follow satan or reject God can then go live in hell because that is where God is not. That is what they want - to be away from God - so they get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 [quote]So you are telling me, the creator of everything did not create evil?[/quote] That is a tricky question. Evil is the privation of good. Aquinas states: [quote]It must be said that every evil in some way has a cause. For evil is the absence of the good, which is natural and due to a thing. But that anything fail from its natural and due disposition can come only from some cause drawing it out of its proper disposition. For a heavy thing is not moved upwards except by some impelling force; nor does an agent fail in its action except from some impediment. But only good can be a cause; because nothing can be a cause except inasmuch as it is a being, and every being, as such, is good. (ST I, 49, 1)[/quote] Evil has no direct cause, but only an accidental cause. God does not intend for evil to happen, but rather it happens as a deficency of the good. In other words, evil happens by accidental means. It is not intended. God didn't intend for Satan to be Satan, but Satan chose evil over good as a deficient action. Again as Aquinas rightly states, [quote]Evil has a deficient cause in voluntary things otherwise than in natural things. For the natural agent produces the same kind of effect as it is itself, unless it is impeded by some exterior thing; and this amounts to some defect belonging to it. Hence evil never follows in the effect, unless some other evil pre-exists in the agent or in the matter, as was said above. But in voluntary things the defect of the action comes from the will actually deficient, inasmuch as it does not actually subject itself to its proper rule. This defect, however, is not a fault, but fault follows upon it from the fact that the will acts with this defect. (ST I, 49, 1)[/quote] Notice that the deficient cause is voluntary. Free will. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 10 2005, 11:32 AM'] [/quote] [quote]That is a tricky question. Evil is the privation of good. [/quote] Its pretty easy actually. God creates everything. Man could not chose evil if it never existed. [quote]Aquinas states: Evil has no direct cause, but only an accidental cause. God does not intend for evil to happen, but rather it happens as a deficency of the good. In other words, evil happens by accidental means. It is not intended.[/quote] Sounds like a cop out for god. You got any scripture to back this up? Im curious. [quote]God didn't intend for Satan to be Satan, but Satan chose evil over good as a deficient action[/quote] So your telling me, god didn't know satan would reject him when he created him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 [quote]Sounds like a cop out for god. You got any scripture to back this up? Im curious.[/quote] What you are talking about isn't necessarily a theological question. It is more philosophical. Scripture doesn't play a direct part in this discussion. However, Wisdom 1:11-15 does a good job to sum it up. [quote]11 Keep yourselves therefore from murmuring, which profiteth nothing, and refrain your tongue from detraction, for an obscure speech shall not go for nought: and the mouth that belieth, killeth the soul. 12 Seek not death in the error of your life, neither procure ye destruction by the works of your hands. [b]13 For God made not death, neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.[/b] 14 For he created all things that they might be: and he made the nations of the earth for health: and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor kingdom of hell upon the earth. 15 For justice is perpetual and immortal. (Wis 1:11-15)[/quote] Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted May 8, 2005 Author Share Posted May 8, 2005 bump for atheist newbies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='theculturewarrior']How can good exist, if there is no God?[/quote] "Good" doesn't exist. Therefore no god is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 explain to me how good does not exist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 8 2005, 02:04 PM'] explain to me how good does not exist [/quote] Indeed. What is your definition of good and justify your claim for saying that it does not exist rather than simply stating it as though it were self-evident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='Noel's angel']explain to me how good does not exist[/quote] Waht you call good is relative. There is no absolute meaning of good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 02:11 PM'] Waht you call good is relative. There is no absolute meaning of good. [/quote] You cannot justify one truth claim by making another that you offer no evidence for. Justify your truth claim. That means give a reason (which I kinda guess you did), then present the facts that you used (you have yet to present any facts, what you did was present another conclusion as though it were already proven), and then the principles that you used to interpret those facts to give light to that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 02:11 PM'] Waht you call good is relative. There is no absolute meaning of good. [/quote] Using that idea, that would mean that what Hitler did was really "good" because he thought it to be.. and it was only bad because we didnt like it. So were we all really fighting over nothing in order to stop the innocent deaths of people, even though it wasnt really "good" or "bad"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted May 8, 2005 Author Share Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 02:11 PM'] [quote name='Noel's angel']explain to me how good does not exist[/quote] Waht you call good is relative. There is no absolute meaning of good. [/quote] Human beings are subjective... how does that make Truth subjective? How does one proceed from the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor']what Hitler did was really "good" because he thought it to be[/quote] He probably thought that he was doing something good. I don't, since I have a different idea of what is good. [quote name='fidei defensor']and it was only bad because we didnt like it.[/quote] That's correct. [quote name='fidei defensor']So were we all really fighting over nothing in order to stop the innocent deaths of people, even though it wasnt really "good" or "bad"?[/quote] We are fighting for those people, not for some ideal of what is good. [quote name='theculturewarrior']Human beings are subjective... how does that make Truth subjective? How does one proceed from the other?[/quote] "Good" is a human-made consept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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