Gregorian Chant

[Cam42]

I have had someone ask me if we really need to learn and know Gregorian Chant. I gave an answer to him, but I'd like to know what you all think.....have at it. I will chime in from time to time. Debate away folks....

Cam

[Jaime]

Hmm who was it?? I'm DYING to know!! Was it

Cardinal Arinze?
Cardinal Ratzinger?
Monsignor Schuller?
David Haas?
John Foley?
Marty Haugen?
Darryl Hall?
The members of the now defunct country group Alabama?
One of the Wiggles?
Donald Trump?
Jimmy J.J. Walker?
Minnie Me?


Dang... who can it be? I mean Cam knows A LOT of people folks!

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 16 2005, 10:49 PM'] Hmm who was it?? I'm DYING to know!! Was it

Cardinal Arinze?
Cardinal Ratzinger?
Monsignor Schuller?
David Haas?
John Foley?
Marty Haugen?
Darryl Hall?
The members of the now defunct country group Alabama?
One of the Wiggles?
Donald Trump?
Jimmy J.J. Walker?
Minnie Me?


Dang... who can it be? I mean Cam knows A LOT of people folks! [/quote]

[Jaime]

Cam knows a lot of famous folk

[Ash Wednesday]

When you say "really need to learn" -- do you mean something essential to the faith? Or something in terms of curriculum or liturgical music among the lay people, or religious? Being learned as part of religious education? Something taught in Catholic school or university?

[Jaime]

I think Cam's question is more if we should reintroduce the Gregorian chant back into the Mass

[drewmeister2]

Yes, it would be nice to see more Gregorian Chant, but I dont think it is the only music that is acceptable for Liturgies either, there are plenty of other good traditional songs that aren't Gregorian.

[Wynd]

Just IMO, but I think Gregorian Chant should make a comeback. Vatican II documents say it's supposed to be given "pride of place in liturgical services," and maybe it's just my taste, but I'm longing for something a little more "reverent" in the liturgy than the usual music I hear at Mass. Of course, I'm not saying [i]every[/i] Mass has to use it, but right now it's hardly at "pride of place" position.

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 16 2005, 10:49 PM'] Hmm who was it?? I'm DYING to know!! Was it

Cardinal Arinze?
Cardinal Ratzinger?
Monsignor Schuller?
David Haas?
John Foley?
Marty Haugen?
Darryl Hall?
The members of the now defunct country group Alabama?
One of the Wiggles?
Donald Trump?
Jimmy J.J. Walker?
Minnie Me?


Dang... who can it be? I mean Cam knows A LOT of people folks! [/quote]
No silly, it was you....we are off to a good start on this one.....

I will make my formal response soon......




























Msgr. Schuler only has one L.

Cam

N.B. Do you want to get down and use your legs like a big boy clone?

[Brother Adam]

Need to? No we don't.

[FutureSoror]

just wanted to say...... I :wub: Gregorian Chant!!

[argent_paladin]

Need to? Yes we do.

[Brother Adam]

Show me something from canon law or another directive that requires Gregorian Chant at mass.

Edited April 17, 2005 by Brother Adam

[argent_paladin]

[quote] Our congregation has prepared a booklet entitled, "Jubilate Deo", which contains a minimum selection of sacred chants. This was done in response to a desire which the Holy Father had frequently expressed, that all the faithful should know at least some Latin Gregorian chants, such as, for example, the "Gloria", the "Credo", the "Sanctus", and the "Agnus Dei".[1]

It gives me great pleasure to send you a copy of it, as a personal gift from His Holiness, Pope Paul VI. May I take this opportunity of recommending to your pastoral solicitude this new initiative, whose purpose is to facilitate the observance of the recommendation of the Second Vatican Council "...steps must be taken to ensure that the faithful are able to chant together in Latin those parts of the ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.[2]

In effect, when the faithful gather together for prayer they manifest at once the diversity of a people drawn "from every tribe, language and nation (Ap. 5:9) and its unity in faith and charity. Their diversity is manifested in the present multiplicity of liturgical languages and in the vernacular chants which, in the context of one shared faith, give expression to each people's religious sentiment in music drawn from its culture and traditions. On the other hand, their unity finds particularly apt and even sensible expression through the use of Latin Gregorian chant.

Down the centuries, Gregorian chant has accompanied liturgical celebrations in the Roman rite, has nourished men's faith and has fostered their piety, while in the process achieving an artistic perfection which the Church rightly considers a patrimony of inestimable value and which the Council recognized as "the chant especially suited to the Roman liturgy."[3]

One of the objectives of the liturgical reform is to promote community singing in assemblies of the faithful, so that they might the better express the festive, communal and fraternal character of liturgical celebrations. In effect, "the liturgical action becomes more dignified when it is accompanied by chant, when each minister fulfills his own role and the faithful also take part.
[/quote]
Letter to the Bishops on the Minimum Repertoire of Plainchant
"Voluntati Obsequens"
Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship April 14, 1974

[quote] 2. Sacred music should consequently possess, in the highest degree, the qualities proper to the liturgy, and in particular sanctity and goodness of form, which will spontaneously produce the final quality of universality.

It must be holy, and must, therefore, exclude all profanity not only in itself, but in the manner in which it is presented by those who execute it.

It must be true art, for otherwise it will be impossible for it to exercise on the minds of those who listen to it that efficacy which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her liturgy the art of musical sounds.

But it must, at the same time, be universal in the sense that while every nation is permitted to admit into its ecclesiastical compositions those special forms which may be said to constitute its native music, still these forms must be subordinated in such a manner to the general characteristics of sacred music that nobody of any nation may receive an impression other than good on hearing them.

II. The different kinds of sacred music
3. These qualities are to be found, in the highest degree, in Gregorian Chant, which is, consequently the Chant proper to the Roman Church, the only chant she has inherited from the ancient fathers, which she has jealously guarded for centuries in her liturgical codices, which she directly proposes to the faithful as her own, which she prescribes exclusively for some parts of the liturgy, and which the most recent studies have so happily restored to their integrity and purity.

On these grounds Gregorian Chant has always been regarded as the supreme model for sacred music, so that it is fully legitimate to lay down the following rule: the more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savor the Gregorian form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.

The ancient traditional Gregorian Chant must, therefore, in a large measure be restored to the functions of public worship, and the fact must be accepted by all that an ecclesiastical function loses none of its solemnity when accompanied by this music alone.

Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times.
[/quote]

Tra le Sollecitudini
Instruction on Sacred Music
Pope Pius X

[quote]112. The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is that, as sacred song united to the words, it forms a necessary or integral part of the solemn liturgy.

Holy Scripture, indeed, has bestowed praise upon sacred song (42), and the same may be said of the fathers of the Church and of the Roman pontiffs who in recent times, led by St. Pius X, have explained more precisely the ministerial function supplied by sacred music in the service of the Lord.

Therefore sacred music is to be considered the more holy in proportion as it is more closely connected with the liturgical action, whether it adds delight to prayer, fosters unity of minds, or confers greater solemnity upon the sacred rites. But the Church approves of all forms of true art having the needed qualities, and admits them into divine worship.

Accordingly, the sacred Council, keeping to the norms and precepts of ecclesiastical tradition and discipline, and having regard to the purpose of sacred music, which is the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful, decrees as follows.

113. Liturgical worship is given a more noble form when the divine offices are celebrated solemnly in song, with the assistance of sacred ministers and the active participation of the people.

As regards the language to be used, the provisions of Art. 36 are to be observed [article 36 says that Latin is the preferred language]; for the Mass, Art. 54; for the sacraments, Art. 63; for the divine office. Art. 101.

114. The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care. Choirs must be diligently promoted, especially in cathedral churches; but bishops and other pastors of souls must be at pains to ensure that, whenever the sacred action is to be celebrated with song, the whole body of the faithful may be able to contribute that active participation which is rightly theirs, as laid down in Art. 28 and 30.

115. Great importance is to be attached to the teaching and practice of music in seminaries, in the novitiates and houses of study of religious of both sexes, and also in other Catholic institutions and schools. To impart this instruction, teachers are to be carefully trained and put in charge of the teaching of sacred music.

It is desirable also to found higher institutes of sacred music whenever this can be done.

Composers and singers, especially boys, must also be given a genuine liturgical training.

116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

118. Religious singing by the people is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises, as also during liturgical services, the voices of the faithful may ring out according to the norms and requirements of the rubrics.[/quote]
Sacrosanctum Concilium, Vatican II, Constitution on the Liturgy

Edited April 17, 2005 by argent_paladin

[Jaime]

[quote] No silly, it was you....we are off to a good start on this one.....[/quote]

THAT'S RIGHT PEOPLE!! CAMSTER TALKS TO ME PERSONALLY!!


Jealous people line up on the right please

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Yes!

We in the US have failed MISERABLY at giving Gregorian Chant "pride of place" in the Mass. We ought to be ashamed of ourselves, go to Confession, and bug the heck out of our pastors and choirs until they sing Gregorian Chant at nearly every Mass.


Brother Adam...
Sacrosanctum Consilium #116, I think. (and don't think me schismatic...) Pope St. Pius X has a bit about it as well in a work (I don't remember if it was an encyclical, etc.) called "Tra le sollecitudini" #3 talks about chant being proper to the Roman Liturgy or something along those lines.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Oh, and here's something I found at Zenit.org: [url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=46699"]http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=46699[/url]


Happy chanting.

[Cam42]

argent_paladin has struck a major blow to those who don't think that it is necessary or necessarily important.

I would use his post as the new starting point of the conversation.

[quote]The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services. (Sacrosanctum Concilium 116)[/quote]

At this point, there is no place in the Liturgy. Now this is from the Vatican Council II. My next question would be, why do all the liberals and proponents of Vatican Council II skip this part? I already know the answer, but I want your thoughts....

Cam

[Colleen]

I think Gregorian chant is beautiful and I'd like to hear it more often at Mass.

[Brother Adam]

Not a single source given so far has said that the Chant is required at mass. I'm all for it, but to say it is necessary rather than preferable is wrong.

And Cam, liberal is a political word, not a religious word.