Fides_et_Ratio Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 because it shouldn't be about changing the Mass to fit the people (that's giving in). it should be about changing the people to fit the Mass... and that happens through example and prayer. I have not condemned guitars in this thread. I have simply stated my support for gregorian chant. the line is drawn in the rubrics. it's not about stretching out what's not explicitly stated in the rubrics so we can do what we want.. it's about recognizing the sacredness of the Mass and understanding the rubrics enough to follow them simply and with common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Insomuch as the Church is reaching the people. The Church exists to evangelize. Here is a question - what do the Bishops in the Church have to say about how the mass is carried out in America? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Apr 17 2005, 03:41 PM'] because it shouldn't be about changing the Mass to fit the people (that's giving in). it should be about changing the people to fit the Mass... and that happens through example and prayer. I have not condemned guitars in this thread. I have simply stated my support for gregorian chant. the line is drawn in the rubrics. it's not about stretching out what's not explicitly stated in the rubrics so we can do what we want.. it's about recognizing the sacredness of the Mass and understanding the rubrics enough to follow them simply and with common sense. [/quote] I think that if people have any room to "stretch out whats not explicitly stated" then there is not much of a line in the rubrics. We have guitars at the Newman Center, statistically the most orthodox parish in the most orthodox diocese in the US. It's not an attempt to stretch the rules. It's an attempt to follow the Church's directives in allowing true stewardship. Our guitar players want to help at Mass, so we give them a place. Chant and sacred music still takes precedence very clearly. We had "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence" at Mass today. The lyrics are a translation from the Liturgy of St. James of the Fourth Century. Then I had a solo in "O Filii et Filiae." We sang good, traditional hymns (I LOVE St. Michael's Hymnal). Where is the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 (edited) [quote] Here is a question - what do the Bishops in the Church have to say about how the mass is carried out in America?[/quote] privately, or 'on the record'? Raph-- There is a line. And it's pretty clear... anything outside the scope of the rubrics is "crossing" it. Edited April 17, 2005 by Fides_et_Ratio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Don't forget, I'm a new Catholic. I don't find it amusing in the least. Or are you saying that you can do it better and should be teaching the Bishops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Apr 17 2005, 03:52 PM'] Raph-- There is a line. And it's pretty clear... anything outside the scope of the rubrics is "crossing" it. [/quote] If it's so clear, then tell us what it is and document it. You have yet to do so. I want to abide by the Church's teachings, but I think there is some bias being brought in here. I love chant...I want an excuse to agree, don't think I'm trying not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GumbySmile Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I believe that an important point to this issue is "why"? Today we need to understand "why" we put emphasis on music in the mass. Why do we care? It is easy to just call liturgical issues "political" and therefore disregard the importance of these liturgical issues. I think it is important to look at the symbolic nature of what Gregorian Chant is all about. What do you think? Why do you think that the church has said that it has "pride of place"? Why does she emphasize the organ? What is specific about these vessels or "instruments" to convey the message of the Eucharistic sacrifice? Why do we regard modern music used in the liturgy, as one previous poster thinks, not as reverent as Gregorian Chant? What do you think? Totus Tuus Christopher Vigil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 [quote]All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy. [b]Other types of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful. Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord's Prayer, set to the simpler melodies.[/b][/quote] Thought a little context from Zenit would be helpful. Just about everyone at my parish knows the Lord's Prayer in chant, and the hymnal has enough of a guide that they could do it in Latin (although, being almost entirely native English speakers, we don't do the Creed in music, and have no need for the common language of Latin, although I think it would be cool if we did). They know the Mass parts in chant. When we use non-chant music, we do go by the above rule. It seems that this is quite fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 17 2005, 02:57 PM'] Don't forget, I'm a new Catholic. I don't find it amusing in the least. Or are you saying that you can do it better and should be teaching the Bishops? [/quote] Whoa, hold up! Where did I ever imply such a thing?! .. I didn't. Raph-- What you posted from Zenit, was what I was going to post for the line. Other things are permissabe "provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful". I think that's pretty clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Apr 17 2005, 04:06 PM'] Raph-- What you posted from Zenit, was what I was going to post for the line. Other things are permissabe "provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful". I think that's pretty clear. [/quote] That is clear. I don't see what this debate is all about, then. I think Adam would agree with that paragraph quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I love to read every one's thoughts on this and I love reading what the Church teaches. I love seeing people involved at Mass. There is so much common ground. The rubrics are so very important. When is comes to guitars, as long as they are used according to the rubrics, it is a great gift being offered. There has to be a rethinking about the Music at Mass in many ways. I think that that is already has been start. The why is important, just like GS said. Do we know those things? Can I get a little Catchesis and training on the Liturgy in the house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 [quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 17 2005, 03:08 PM'] That is clear. I don't see what this debate is all about, then. I think Adam would agree with that paragraph quite well. [/quote] I wasn't debating Bro. Adam! He asked where it said that Gregorian Chant was necessary, such that I thought he didn't like it/thought it should be secondary, so I asked why.. and wasn't understanding how he thought it was "unnecessary". My posts were not a debate, or an attack... just seeking to understand. Geez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Apr 17 2005, 04:13 PM'] I wasn't debating Bro. Adam! He asked where it said that Gregorian Chant was necessary, such that I thought he didn't like it/thought it should be secondary, so I asked why.. and wasn't understanding how he thought it was "unnecessary". My posts were not a debate, or an attack... just seeking to understand. Geez. [/quote] I'm sorry if I misunderstood. I sensed a bit of "talking down" to Adam and to me. I must have been wrong. Forgive me. -_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Fides, I liked your posts and everyone elses. There was a lot brought to the table here and for once, I think this thread about Gregorian Chant didn't strain the particpants too much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 [quote name='Oik' date='Apr 17 2005, 04:20 PM'] Fides, I liked your posts and everyone elses. There was a lot brought to the table here and for once, I think this thread about Gregorian Chant didn't strain the particpants too much! [/quote] Yeah...too little strain...we need to do something about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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