Fides_et_Ratio Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Yes! We in the US have failed MISERABLY at giving Gregorian Chant "pride of place" in the Mass. We ought to be ashamed of ourselves, go to Confession, and bug the heck out of our pastors and choirs until they sing Gregorian Chant at nearly every Mass. Brother Adam... Sacrosanctum Consilium #116, I think. (and don't think me schismatic...) Pope St. Pius X has a bit about it as well in a work (I don't remember if it was an encyclical, etc.) called "Tra le sollecitudini" #3 talks about chant being proper to the Roman Liturgy or something along those lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Oh, and here's something I found at Zenit.org: [url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=46699"]http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=46699[/url] Happy chanting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 17, 2005 Author Share Posted April 17, 2005 argent_paladin has struck a major blow to those who don't think that it is necessary or necessarily important. I would use his post as the new starting point of the conversation. [quote]The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services. (Sacrosanctum Concilium 116)[/quote] At this point, there is no place in the Liturgy. Now this is from the Vatican Council II. My next question would be, why do all the liberals and proponents of Vatican Council II skip this part? I already know the answer, but I want your thoughts.... Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I think Gregorian chant is beautiful and I'd like to hear it more often at Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Not a single source given so far has said that the Chant is required at mass. I'm all for it, but to say it is necessary rather than preferable is wrong. And Cam, liberal is a political word, not a religious word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I wasn't aware that The Church had asked the faithful to stop having gregorian chant in the liturgy... As far as I know, our 'tradition' still holds that it has 'pride of place.' I'm surprised that Catholics in the US even know what gregorian chant is... Usually if you ask, they say something like "Oh yeah, that CD that those monks put out a cuple of years ago... The Church still uses that boring stuff..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 17, 2005 Author Share Posted April 17, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 17 2005, 01:12 PM'] Not a single source given so far has said that the Chant is required at mass. I'm all for it, but to say it is necessary rather than preferable is wrong. And Cam, liberal is a political word, not a religious word. [/quote] So what.....this is a political issue. Church politics. You may not like the language, but there is not a better way to get the point across. I suppose that I could say the liturgically obtuse, but then again, you would probably attack me on that too, now wouldn't you. If you don't think that political agendas and ideologies have entered into this, then you are naive......incidentally, I am conservative. It is my intention to conserve the liturgy in the way that it is intended and I do not want to liberate it into my own image or idealogue. There are politics in the Church as well....sorry bud. Oh and it is necessary: [quote][b]This instruction is binding on all rites of the Latin Church. Thus, what is said of Gregorian chant applies to all the chants which are used in other Latin rites.[/b] Sacred music is to be taken generally in this instruction as embracing both vocal and instrumental music. But at times it will be limited to instrumental music only, as will be clear from the context. A church ordinarily means any sacred place; this includes a church in the strict sense, as well as public, semipublic, and private oratories; again the context itself may restrict the meaning to a church in the strict sense. (De Musica Sacra no. 11)[/quote] [quote][b]The standard editions of the liturgical chant of the Roman Church are: Roman Gradual, with the Ordinary of the Mass. Roman Antiphonal, for the Day Hours. Offices of the Dead, Holy Week, and Christmas.[/b] (DMS no. 56)[/quote] [quote][b]Thus, the authentic Gregorian chant is that which is published in the standard Vatican editions[/b], or which has been approved by the Sacred Congregation of Rites for a particular church or religious community. Publishers who have this authorization are obliged, therefore, to reproduce both the melody, and the text exactly as approved in all details. The rhythmic signs which have been inserted into some chant editions on private authority are permitted so long as they not alter the melodic line of the grouping of the notes, as they appear in the Vatican editions. (DMS no. 58)[/quote] That is pretty authoritative.....while it doesn't say necessary, it doesn't necessairly need to, in order for it to be binding. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Wow, that's pretty charitable, and so is Dust for actually letting you have Church Scholar next to your name. Is it safe to bet that you think Novus Ordo masses are invalid too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 vice versa, perhaps? How does "pride of place" translate to "unnecessary"?? Why don't you like chant, Bro. Adam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 17 2005, 02:12 PM'] Not a single source given so far has said that the Chant is required at mass. [b]I'm all for it, but to say it is necessary rather than preferable is wrong. [/b] [/quote] ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Well, if something is given "[b]pride[/b] of place" this would assume that it already has [b]A[/b] place, does it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Sure. But where is the line drawn? Is stating that the chant must be a required part of every mass and liturgical event in the Church the correct line? Who decides the line? Is it right for the laity to decide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Why is the Church in America running a way from our tradition? I see cam's point, I see Adam's point. My point: Why is there even a question of whether Chant HAS to be used, why are we running a way from it? At the same time, why is there such a strong condemnation on music that ISN'T liturgically incorrect. If the lyrics conform and if the style conforms, then guitars ARE allowed. Should we then pretend that guitars are the greatest thing to happen since gregorian chant? Should we then condemn guitars in Mass? Brothers and Sisters, we are all Catholics, so why push each other out of the pews in an attempt to make room for the ones who aren't coming to Mass anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Oik, You put that very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Well put, Oik. I prefer chant. That's not to say that I'm against other hymns. We chant in Latin and English quite a bit in the Lincoln Diocese, especially for the Mass parts and meditation hymns. I do think it should carry pride of place, but I want to know where the line is, too. The fact is that the laity is supposed to participate and they don't know many chants, not to mention the chant notation. I'd also like to know if the pride of place can only go to Gregorian chant. What about English chants? What about psalm tones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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