Music

[Jaime]

actually we are speaking about their music. And as the Church has said, their praise can bear some fruit.

I'm guessing (on the rest) that since I have been stating only doctrine, you are in agreement with me.

Unless you feel that I am misrepresenting Church teachings.

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 9 2005, 11:43 PM'] actually we are speaking about their music. And as the Church has said, their praise can bear some fruit.

I'm guessing (on the rest) that since I have been stating only doctrine, you are in agreement with me.

Unless you feel that I am misrepresenting Church teachings. [/quote]
That is all fine and well, but Protestants are not in union with the Church. If they were, they could receive Holy Communion, as it is, they are not and cannot.

Cam

[Jaime]

[quote]
That is all fine and well, but Protestants are not in union with the Church[/quote]

Definition of union[quote]The act of uniting or the state of being united.[/quote]

They are united through baptism. Is is a full communion? no. I've said that. Vatican II states that they are in an imperfect communion. But through their baptism, salvation is possible. I've never stated that protestantism is the same as Catholicism.

The point is (and has been backed with documentation) that their praise bears some fruit. This pertains to Christian music.

[Q the Ninja]

I believe UR also states that the Blessed Sacrament is the summit of unity. It's also a root as stated by the recent Prefect of the CDF.

They aren't really in communion at all. They are in an imperfect union so far as they share Baptism and they share faith, but we need to make absolutely sure we understand that much.

Cardinal Kasper says the word [i]communio[/i] used in UR doesn't mean communion, but rather participation.

[Jaime]

Is it me or is this getting a bit off track?

No one has said they are in full union with the Church. I have brought in UR as well as the Catechism to dispute the notion that "no good can come from Christian praise or worship" It was not the intent to say anything else.

Imperfect communion. Their praise still bears some fruit.

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 10 2005, 05:17 PM'] Is it me or is this getting a bit off track?

No one has said they are in full union with the Church. I have brought in UR as well as the Catechism to dispute the notion that "no good can come from Christian praise or worship" It was not the intent to say anything else.

Imperfect communion. Their praise still bears some fruit. [/quote]
But Protestants are still not in union with the Church....sorry.

[Jaime]

You gonna stay tangental or add something to the discussion?

[MichaelFilo]

Imperfect communion. Their praise is still outside of the full unity of the Church. I'm sorry, God doesn't like it when His children aren't in His Church. Whatever the intent, their praise and worship is flat, and doesn't please God. On a personal level, yes, but the actual praise and worship, nein.

God bless,
Mikey

[Jaime]

First of all their "praise bears fruit". There is some good that comes from it.

Second of all, most Christian music is, as I've said, a personal testimony. It does not reflect a group belief or doctrine.

[Nicole8223]

This is ridiculous. How can we judge that someone else's praise is worthless.

If a Protestant says "Jesus is the savior o the world," is it not pleasing to God? They are on their way, right? So why not if they sing it?

God is not an all or nothing God. He loevs each of his children. For us to say that Protestant music is not pleasing to God is judgemental and extremely presumptious.

Their praise may not be perfect, but as hot stuff said like 10 times, it bears some fruit.

[MichaelFilo]

Ok. Fine. Lets not be judgemental, those 3 popes I quoted know absolutly nothing about what they are talking about. Thanks for being the voice of reason.

The problem is: it isn't as simple as saying that their praise bears some fruit, so therefore their praise and worship is worth something. That is far from the truth. As I've said time and time again, their worship is meaningless outside of full unity with the Catholic Church. If to no fault of their own, however, God still loves them for looking for Him and praising Him. Therefore, He is happy with their intent, and their praise brings forth good :That is, their intent in praise. However, the praise and worship itself is not pleasing. They cannot please God if they will not do as He wills, and that is to be in the Catholic Church, the only True Church, in the fullness of Faith, with the Deposit of Faith, kept watch over and gaurded by the Holy Spirit, the only Church with that kind of promise. So, their worship outside of His Church is in direct conflict with His Will, and that is for everyone to be a Catholic, and praise the Unmovable Mover, the Alpha and the Omega, and worship He Who Is.
Their baptism may give them some hope for salvation, but it does not mean they are in unity with the Church. They worship "outside of the house" and as long as they do so "they will perish", and they "blaspheme". That is the problem, they cannot worship Him, because to do so would only be plausible within the Catholic Church. Outside of Her is not worship, but a contradiction.

And I will reiterate, it is in their good will that fruit comes from the praise, not from the praise itself. If you like refuting popes, please do so, but sensational arguements about flawed compassion, as if we had some hand in God's Workings, is, to the say the least, counterproductive.

God bless,
Mikey

[Nicole8223]

[quote]Pope Pius VIII, Traditi Humilitati (# 4), May 24, 1829:

“Jerome used to say it this way: he who eats the Lamb outside this house will perish as did those during the flood who were not with Noah in the ark.”(32)



Pope Gregory XVI, Commissum divinitus (# 11), May 17, 1835:

“… whoever dares to depart from the unity of Peter might understand that he no longer shares in the divine mystery…‘Whoever eats the Lamb outside of this house is unholy.’”(33)



Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus (# 3), April 8, 1862:

“… whoever eats of the Lamb and is not a member of the Church, has profaned.”(34)[/quote]

They are speaking of receiving the Eucharist here, right? I don't think that is in discussion. Obviosuly a heretic should not receive the Eucharist. But it doesnt mean a protestant cannot write a good song.

Edited May 10, 2005 by Nicole8223

[Cam42]

I like being tangental....apparently you are saying that I have nothing to add...I will pout now.....thanks for being so affirming....you big meanie....

LOL....What is tangental again?

Cam

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 10 2005, 04:17 PM'] Is it me or is this getting a bit off track?

No one has said they are in full union with the Church. I have brought in UR as well as the Catechism to dispute the notion that "no good can come from Christian praise or worship" It was not the intent to say anything else.

Imperfect communion. Their praise still bears some fruit. [/quote]
I think we have to understand the document for it to be of any good here.

Also, I still hold to it being imperfect union, not communion...

[Q the Ninja]

This is what UR says about the Eastern Churches:

[quote]In this liturgical worship, the Christians of the East pay high tribute, in beautiful hymns of praise, to Mary ever Virgin, whom the ecumenical Council of Ephesus solemnly proclaimed to be the holy Mother of God, so that Christ might be acknowledged as being truly Son of God and Son of Man, according to the Scriptures. Many also are the saints whose praise they sing, among them the Fathers of the universal Church.

These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments and above all, by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy. Therefore some worship in common (communicatio in sacris), given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not only possible but to be encouraged[/quote]

[Q the Ninja]

Next, it says this. I believe this following statement talks about Protestants.

[quote]Though the ecclesial Communities which are separated from us lack the fullness of unity with us flowing from Baptism, and though we believe they have not retained the proper reality of the eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Orders, nevertheless when they commemorate His death and resurrection in the Lord's Supper, they profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and look forward to His coming in glory. Therefore the teaching concerning the Lord's Supper, the other sacraments, worship, the ministry of the Church, must be the subject of the dialogue.

23. The daily Christian life of these brethren is nourished by their faith in Christ and strengthened by the grace of Baptism and by hearing the word of God. This shows itself in their private prayer, their meditation on the Bible, in their Christian family life, and in the worship of a community gathered together to praise God. Moreover, their form of worship sometimes displays notable features of the liturgy which they shared with us of old.

Their faith in Christ bears fruit in praise and thanksgiving for the blessings received from the hands of God. Among them, too, is a strong sense of justice and a true charity toward their neighbor. This active faith has been responsible for many organizations for the relief of spiritual and material distress, the furtherance of the education of youth, the improvement of the social conditions of life, and the promotion of peace throughout the world.[/quote]

Mikey, when it comes to Papal documents, such as encyclicals, they only uphold infallible teachings when they deal with [i]Ex Cathedra[/i] statements (used only twice) or they teach something in line with the Ordinary Universal Magisterium that is on faith or morals and taught definitively. Well, in this case, I would say that the three Popes you quoted were not speaking in either capacity. This means that we owe a religious submission of mind and will as long as it is not overturned by another Pope or council. Well, in this case a council has come out and said that the praise of Protestants can be pleasing.

Also, in regards to those three Popes, none of them said that the praise of non-Catholics is pleasing, but that they do not partake in full [i]communio[/i], meaning they cannot partake of Holy Communion...not really part of this discussion I think.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='May 10 2005, 07:36 PM']
They are speaking of receiving the Eucharist here, right? I don't think that is in discussion. Obviosuly a heretic should not receive the Eucharist. But it doesnt mean a protestant cannot write a good song. [/quote]
I think I'll say it again. Protestants can write good songs. However, they don't have the resources (they don't allow the Spirit's work to fully take hold, so their songs will reflect this limit).

The Eucharist is the pinnacle of Catholic worship. If being outside of the house for it will perish, what is to say that any other "lesser" form of worship is free of this jurisdiction? Is not receiving Communion outside of unity with Peter and praising the Lord and not being unified with the Peter still the same thing? Sure, one will cause damnation, because it is Truely the Body and Blood. However, would saying "God I love you" without accepting God's Church displeasing to God? Sure, your intent is good, and God will surely love His child who wants to please Him, but intent doesn't change the action. Non-Catholic worship is and will always be opposed to God's Will. Every Christian who breathes but does not reside within Christ's Church is opposed to God in action, if not intent.

But look at the claim that their worship and praise is pleasing. What is to say that a Muslim's isn't pleasing, or a Jew? Why can't you extend it to the athiest, who praises God when he proclaims the truths in science and the complexities of cosmology. Make it even better, lets say they left the Catholic Church. They are apostates. Why, they share in the baptism, why can't their worship and praise be pleasing? The answer is simple : God founded one Church, the pillar of Truth, with one visible head, the man who resides in the seat of Saint Peter. God built this Church and gave it supernatural powers in a natural world. He gave Her instructions to carry out, and poursed His blessings. Whenever someone leaves this Church, they have rejected God's will. If they are born outside of the Church, they still have done so because they are not in His Church. If truely open to God (a trait very rarely found in anyone, total openness), then God will lead them to His Church, where He has made clear His desires for worship, and has watched over His Church so that it can keep to His rules and His Truth.

God bless,
Mikey

[Nicole8223]

[quote]Protestants can write good songs. However, they don't have the resources (they don't allow the Spirit's work to fully take hold, so their songs will reflect this limit). [/quote]

Well, that is the only point I was triyng to make. Protestant music can be good. it isn't bad just because they aren't Catholic. it surely won't talk about the Eucharist, but not every song has to, and so that's that!

[MichaelFilo]

Yes. I think I've stated that point 20 times, and I stand by it. They can write good music (not good for the Mass, of course because of their heretical tendencies), but good music. Their worship, that is the actual act of worshipping God is no good. That is all.

God bless,
Mikey

[Jaime]

I love her!!