Incorruptable amputations

[Margarite]

I've been reading the book 'The Incorruptibles' and aside from being quite fascinating, I've wondering why is it that it is permissible to amputate part of their bodies as well as remove the heart and such as reliques and send them to other churches.

Doesn't it seem that it contradicts the nature of their incorruption?

And since we're in this subject, in the end times, are people going to have the same bodies when they resucitate? What happens to those that have been cremated?

[philothea]

Don't know about the relics, but no, we can't be getting risen bodies made out of the same material we're currently made of. We've been... ahem... [i]recycling[/i] a lot of the same molecules for many generations now.

[Aloysius]

the same body will be rebuilt and glorified. God is like Kim Possible, He can do anything.

yeah, molecules are recycled. so what, again, God can do anything. we're talking about time itself ending, explain that one with science. we're talking about renewed heaven and renewed earth existing in a glorified eternity... again, God can do anything.

Christ's body in heaven is the same one He had on earth, same with our Lady and the other saints that were raised at the Ressurection.. our bodies too will be the same ones we had on earth ressurected, rebuilt, and glorified.

God can rebuild us, He has the technology.

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 8 2005, 09:42 PM'] we can't be getting risen bodies made out of the same material we're currently made of. [/quote]
This seems to be true if Sacred Scripture provides any indication. In the Gospel accounts of the period after Jesus' resurrection before the ascension, we find that none of the disciples recognize Jesus until a tell-tale indicator like crucifixion scars or the action of breaking the bread betray his identity. We can infer from this that the glorified body will be quite different in some fundamental way from its original earthly counterpart. What exactly our glorified bodies will look like, though, is an intriguing mystery. Hmmm… can’t wait to find out!

Edited May 9, 2005 by Pilgrim

[Aloysius]

woah, no way. it is quite clear in the gospels that the Risen Body of the Lord is one and the same with the one that was put in the tomb. they didn't recognize Him because they weren't expecting Him to be alive. it will absolutely be the same body.. the creed says we believe in the Ressurection of the body, not the creation of an entire new body.

anyway, you're treading very dangerous dangerous waters claiming that the Glorified Body of the Lord was not the same body He had while he was alive.

[guardsman]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 8 2005, 09:56 PM'] woah, no way. it is quite clear in the gospels that the Risen Body of the Lord is one and the same with the one that was put in the tomb. they didn't recognize Him because they weren't expecting Him to be alive. it will absolutely be the same body.. the creed says we believe in the Ressurection of the body, not the creation of an entire new body.

anyway, you're treading very dangerous dangerous waters claiming that the Glorified Body of the Lord was not the same body He had while he was alive. [/quote]
Yeah, it was definitely the same body. But something was different about it, because His Apostles did not recognise Him. Probably because His body was glorified, whatever that means. We don't know. Someday we will, right?

[Margarite]

[quote]God is like Kim Possible[/quote]



If the body will be rebuilt, I guess it doesn't matter what happens to it when a person dies, I'm just confused by the amputations of some body parts of some incorruptible saints like Francis Xavier who had one arm sent to Japan, some toes taken to other places, etc. I still think that they should be left intact as it was intended by the miracle itself.


[quote]
This seems to be true if Sacred Scripture provides any indication. In the Gospel accounts of the period after Jesus' resurrection before the ascension, we find that none of the disciples recognize Jesus until a tell-tale indicator like crucifixion scars or the action of breaking the bread betray his identity. We can infer from this that the glorified body will be quite different in some fundamental way from its original earthly counterpart. What exactly our glorified bodies will look like, though, is an intriguing mystery. Hmmm… can’t wait to find out! [/quote]

It is an intersting topic because Jesus did have the wounds from the cross, I wonder, then, if the body will be alive as we know 'alive' today, you know, blood circulating and such or if the body will be mearely reanimated.

Edited May 9, 2005 by Margarite

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 8 2005, 09:56 PM'] anyway, you're treading very dangerous dangerous waters claiming that the Glorified Body of the Lord was not the same body He had while he was alive. [/quote]
No, no, no... you misunderstand me entirely. The fault must lie in my explanation, I apologize. Of course it was the same body Jesus was buried with. But many commentators -- including no less than Thomas Aquinas and John Chrysostom -- have ventured to say that the glorified body will no longer [i]appear[/i] the same as the body did before its death. The same body, though [i]glorified[/i] and no longer earthly, will differ in some fundamental way which has not yet been revealed.

Edited May 9, 2005 by Pilgrim

[Margarite]

We can't compare this to, say, Lazarus who was resurected with the same body, but was still bound by the laws of mortality, temptations, sickness, and so on. or can we?

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Margarite' date='May 8 2005, 10:28 PM'] We can't compare this to, say, Lazarus who was resurected with the same body, but was still bound by the laws of mortality, temptations, sickness, and so on.  or can we? [/quote]
Nope, sure can't. He was indeed resurrected, but in a different sense. He could be said to have been [i]resucitated[/i], but his body was not glorified. He was brought back to life to live out a normal earthly lifespan and then to die again. Lucky fellow, he gets to experience [i]another[/i] resurrection at the end of time. Kinda like a two-for-one deal!

Edited May 9, 2005 by Pilgrim

[Margarite]

What would be the factor that would make a body glorified? A better and improved soul?

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Margarite' date='May 8 2005, 10:33 PM'] What would be the factor that would make a body glorified? A better and improved soul? [/quote]
Unfortunatley for our curiosity, a lot of mystery surrounds this question. There are many things that God in his wisdom has simply chosen not to reveal to us. We do know however that at the end of time, whenever that is, we will ALL receive our immortal bodies, saints and sinners alike. Some of us will live with those bodies in heaven in perpetual glory with the Most Holy Trinity (the [i]glorified[/i] body), and some of us will take our immortal bodies with us into hell (the [i]damned [/i]body).

[quote]I'm just confused by the amputations of some body parts of some incorruptible saints like Francis Xavier who had one arm sent to Japan, some toes taken to other places, etc. I still think that they should be left intact as it was intended by the miracle itself. [/quote]

I'm curious myself about this. I can't say I know too much about it. Any feedback from someone who knows?

[Aloysius]

a glorified body is basically restored to the state we were in before the fall.. not only perfect nature and full control of mind and spirit over all passions of the flesh, but also an eternal supernatural elevation above human nature enabling us to experience thebeatific vision and participate in the divine life of the trinity.

there is of course a distinction between a glorified body and an unglorified body, but I assume the only differenc eis that the human body will be perfected and in its prime stage of life.

[Aloysius]

in regards to cuttin up incorruptibles for relics.. I don't have a problem wth it. the body is more than just some empty tool that we abandon, and thus there is a special intercessory value to the presence of an actual piece of the saint's body. why shouldn't more people be able to be in the presence of the saint's body. now, does the incurruptability actually stay with the amputated part? but even if it doesn't I don't have a problem. the incurruptability is just a little miracle, it's not like if you send out parts as relics it won't still be rebuildable.

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 8 2005, 11:31 PM'] a glorified body is basically restored to the state we were in before the fall [/quote]
Not exactly. The glorified body will be in a state closer to divinity than Adam and Eve's body ever was. Augustine referred to original sin as a "happy fault" because were it not for Adam's sin, we would not have needed salvation. But since Adam and Eve [i]did[/i] sin, God had to work out a plan to redeem us. When God became incarnate in Jesus, our humanity was [i]joined[/i] with God's divinity in a new and unique way that our ancestors did not experience. When our body is glorified at the end of time, yes we will regain all the supernatural goods lost by sin, but we will also gain a share in God's divinity, being joined to him by the Son in an infinitely more glorious state than our ancestors could have hoped to experience.

[Margarite]

[quote]in regards to cuttin up incorruptibles for relics.. I don't have a problem wth it. the body is more than just some empty tool that we abandon, and thus there is a special intercessory value to the presence of an actual piece of the saint's body. why shouldn't more people be able to be in the presence of the saint's body. now, does the incurruptability actually stay with the amputated part? but even if it doesn't I don't have a problem. the incurruptability is just a little miracle, it's not like if you send out parts as relics it won't still be rebuildable. [/quote]

See, this is the reason why I asked. I wanted to know why it was okay to do so. Thank you, it does make sense if the parts of the body are taken as objects of intercessory value.

Yes, the incorruptibility does remain with the amputated part. The Incorruptibles by Joan Carroll Cruz is a fascinating book, I recomend it to everyone. The book also says that this miracle hasn't been recorded anywhere else but within the catholic church.

[Margarite]

[quote]When our body is glorified at the end of time, yes we will regain all the supernatural goods lost by sin, but we will also gain a share in God's divinity, being joined to him by the Son in an infinitely more glorious state than our ancestors could have hoped to experience. [/quote]

[quote]a glorified body is basically restored to the state we were in before the fall.. not only perfect nature and full control of mind and spirit over all passions of the flesh, but also an eternal supernatural elevation above human nature enabling us to experience thebeatific vision and participate in the divine life of the trinity.
[/quote]

Do you really think it would be physically different than Adam and Eve? I would have thought that the difference would be in whether the soul attained purity and therefore if put in the same situation as Adam and Eve, it would be stronger to resist temptation.

I'm under the impression that the ressurection of the body is a reward and thus the soul would have the ability to experience events through the senses and enjoy pleasure, feel emotions and such. The Soul, however, would be strong enough to withstand, or overcome all the waknesses of the body.

I'm suggesting that the glorified body would be glorious in its immitation of Jesus's life.

[quote]We do know however that at the end of time, whenever that is, we will ALL receive our immortal bodies, saints and sinners alike. Some of us will live with those bodies in heaven in perpetual glory with the Most Holy Trinity (the glorified body), and some of us will take our immortal bodies with us into hell (the damned body).
[/quote]


To have a physical body in Hell, that is a scary thought. I think about this a lot since I read St. Teresa of Avila's autobiography. She described a vision she had of being in Hell and how at the begining of her spirutal journey she used to pray out of fear of going to Hell instead of praying out of love for God.

[philothea]

I think that a glorified body is substantially different from a perfect natural one. No procreative organs. No ability to suffer pain or sorrow. No passions. Ability to see God and not die. More things I'm not coming up with because it's late.

This only my personal analogy, but I think of our current bodies as seeds, and our glorified bodies as what comes from them. What we do now effects what we will become later, but not in a direct or obvious way. Like you can't predict an oak tree from an acorn.

Just a thought.

[Margarite]

Beautiful analogy.......I'll take it. It makes sense. We are a seed of what we can become, but I still think that the body would be able to feel, for the most part joy in the communion with God. What would be the reason of having a body if it would change its anture? It would probably have said that a new body would ressucitate. I don't think there would be changes it its molecular structure, I thing that the changes would be spiritual.

Edited May 9, 2005 by Margarite

[Aloysius]

before the fall not only did man have a perfect nature, but he was elevated supernaturally by God. we fell down from the supernature even further down below our nature

pre-fall man walked in God's presence, there was a supernatural elevation.

basically speaking, glorifying our bodies is returning us to that state before the fall, because that state WAS elevated, we WERE in God's presnece, however this time we will enter into eternity this way. I was not saying we would be merely natural... in fact I don't believe man ever was in a simply perfect natural state... before the fall we were elevated supernaturally, after the fall we had a fallen nature, and we will have a glorified nature on the day of ressurection

It's not an exact return to before the fall, but we can look to what we know of how man was before the fall to help to understand what we will be like after glorification