Incorruptable amputations

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 9 2005, 03:26 PM'] How else in transubstantiation does the bread and wine still remain the accidents of bread and wine while taking the substance of flesh and blood?  flesh and blood are substance, and such substance remains in the ressurected body. [/quote]
Flesh and blood are not substances in and of themselves. They are predicable of the Real [i]Presence [/i]of Christ, which is the substance.

[quote]I don't know if the accidents remain the same or not but it is clear to me that we hold the same substance of flesh and blood in the ressurection.[/quote]

So... the Council of Orange and the subsequent teaching of the Magisterium is wrong?

Edited May 9, 2005 by Pilgrim

[Aloysius]

you haven't so much as quoted the council or anything from the magisterium, so I don't know really.

the Eucharist's substance is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus; not just His "presence". the substance of bread and wine is changed into the substance of the Body and Blood of Christ.

the phsyical attributes of flesh and blood are the accidents, but there is an inherent substance that makes them flesh and blood. this is all Aristotelian metaphysics right? where am I going wrong?

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 9 2005, 04:16 PM'] where am I going wrong? [/quote]
I've decided that I think we're pretty much saying the same thing, in more or less accurate terms.

My point -- if I may draw us back -- is that our glorified bodies certainly do not return to the state of bodies before the Fall. 'Original Innocence' will never be regained because we now share the knowledge of good and evil with God. The glorified body will be very much different than Adam and Eve's as it will be (1) glorified, not earthly as A&E's were, and (2) it will have been consumed [i]into God[/i], as it were, which A&E did not have the privilege of enjoying. A&E were mere creatures given dominion over the earth, but thanks to Christ's sacrifice, our glorified bodies will become part of God's divinity and will thus be higher even than the angels. The state of 'Original Innocence' was not this privileged.

[Aloysius]

true true. my point with the pre-fall comparison is that the physical bodies of Adam and Eve were elevated to a state above their nature before the fall, and afterwards they were at a state below their nature. in the ressurection it will be the physical bodies elevated much much farther beyond their nature than Adam and Eve ever were, but Christ's work was a reversal of original sin and as such that's the direction our natures head. they are restored to a perfect nature and elevated supernaturally above that nature basically reversing the effects of original sin and then even further glorified and brought into union with God. I still see some merit in the comparison though I admit it is not a full reversal to original innocence, but rather a complete reversal of the effects of original sin perfecting our natures, and then being supernaturally elevated beyond a perfect nature and beyond the supernatural experienc enjoyed by Adam and Eve.

[Pilgrim]

Ah, I think I see your point a little more clearly now. I think we both were closer to saying the same thing than we realized.

[Aloysius]

but if we had realized it it would have been no fun! great talkin with ya

[Margarite]

[quote] but if we had realized it it would have been no fun! great talkin with ya [/quote]

And some of us wouldn't have had such a great lesson about this topic. I must thank you greatly, every visit to my phamily makes me intelectually and spirtually so much richer.







:hearts: