Incorruptable amputations

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 9 2005, 01:05 AM'] basically speaking, glorifying our bodies is returning us to that state before the fall, because that state WAS elevated, we WERE in God's presnece, however this time we will enter into eternity this way. [/quote]
But this is not quite correct. Before the fall we were in a state of 'Original Innocence' without knowledge of good and evil. After Adam's first sin of disobedience, we gained knowledge of good and evil and we will forever keep that knowledge. The difference is that when we enter into eternity, we will be completely [i]free[/i] to choose only the good, rather than being a slave to sin. With this knowledge of good and evil and the freedom of will to choose purely the good, we are closer to God than Adam and Eve were.

In addition, at Christ's ascension he introduced humanity [i]into[/i] the very Godhead, making us an [i]integral part [/i]of the divine person, of which Adam and Eve never partook. The Church teaches that we will actually become a [i]part of[/i] God's very life, rather than simply living in "happiness" with God as Adam and Eve did.

[Aloysius]

again, I am simply comparing the state of the bodies. a glorified body is basically restored to the supernatural level it had been elevated to before the fall with the mind and spirit holding full control over all passions of the flesh. the sin of disobedience was that much greater because Adam and Eve had full control over all their passions.. we're talking absolute culpability. anyway, yes we will be freed from temptation and sin completely

[scardella]

[quote name='Margarite' date='May 8 2005, 09:25 PM'] What happens to those that have been cremated? [/quote]
I'd like to think God re-forms the body, a la Adam being formed out of the dust.
"From dust you came..."

[Aloysius]

symbolism-wise the Church prefers you not to have yourself cremated. the only reason to do such a thing is money or some other reason.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 9 2005, 10:09 AM'] again, I am simply comparing the state of the bodies. a glorified body is basically restored to the supernatural level it had been elevated to before the fall with the mind and spirit holding full control over all passions of the flesh. the sin of disobedience was that much greater because Adam and Eve had full control over all their passions.. we're talking absolute culpability. anyway, yes we will be freed from temptation and sin completely [/quote]
Umm didnt Christ have a glorified body after His ressurection? Wasnt that glorified body able to walk through walls, not need food, etc....? Such some thoughts. If Christ's body is a resemblance of what our glorified bodies will be, then we will be just a tad bit more than the state before original sin.

[Aloysius]

I'm not so sure He walked through the wall... he entered into the locked room. how did he do it? no one's telling, but He's God so He can do anything. He very likely just opened the locked door, walked in, and shut it leaving it locked behind him... just the mysterious way all Creation bends to the will of the creator.

the bodies will have perfect nature and be supernaturally elevated just like Adam and Eve were before the fall. that doesn't mean x-ray vision and flying and walking thorugh walls though, we're not from Krypton

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 9 2005, 10:09 AM'] again, I am simply comparing the state of the bodies. a glorified body is basically restored to the supernatural level it had been elevated to before the fall with the mind and spirit holding full control over all passions of the flesh. [/quote]
Once again, you're failing to make a distinction. The glorified body will not be the same kind of body Adam and Eve had. Perhaps I'm not explaining it well enough. Maybe if we speak in terms of substance and accidents.

Many of the [i]accidents [/i] of our glorified bodies will be similar to that our our earthly bodies, such as some of our bodily features. But the substance of our bodies will be entirely different. Our humanity is now [i]wedded[/i] to Christ and our glorified bodies will actually [i]become a [u]part of God[/u][/i]. The body's very substance, it's essence, will be raised [i]higher than the angels[/i] in a state that Adam and Eve never experienced. Adam and Eve's bodies, though intended to be immortal, were nonetheless [i]earthly[/i] and unglorified. Our bodies will be entirely different as we will be a part of God Himself.

What you're stating seems at first glance to be convincing, but it is actually a matter that was debated at the Council of Orange in 529 AD and found to be in error.

[Aloysius]

I guess I'll drop it. I wasn't intedning to say it was to return precisely to the same as before the fall, simply that our bodies would be elevated to perfect nature and then supernaturally elevated... I related that to how Adam and Eve were in a state supernaturally elevated before the fall so that they had full control of all passions, but definitely the glorified body will be elevated far more than Adam and Eve were, to participate in the divine life of the Trinity.

however, I do not believe we will be the same in accidence only, the body will be made of the same substance as was originally created, it will be elevated, perfected, and glorified beyond the mortal limitations it has now. it will be the same substance of flesh and blood as our bodies are made out of now, we don't just shed off the shell and abandon it. God rebuilds that same body we had in our earthly life then perfects it and glorifies it. the substance is elevated, but it is still the same flesh and blood we had on earth.

also, another minor distinction, while our bodies will be so united to God as to be part of God, we are still individual creations in that uinion with God

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 9 2005, 01:48 PM'] however, I do not believe we will be the same in accidence only, the body will be made of the same substance as was originally created, it will be elevated, perfected, and glorified beyond the mortal limitations it has now.  it will be the same substance of flesh and blood as our bodies are made out of now, we don't just shed off the shell and abandon it.  God rebuilds that same body we had in our earthly life then perfects it and glorifies it.  the substance is elevated, but it is still the same flesh and blood we had on earth.
[/quote]
I'm not sure you understand the terms "substance" and "accident." These are philosophical terms you'll benefit from reading up on. Flesh and blood are not substances, but accidents predicable of the substance. If you understand the terms, then you'll understand why the distinctions you're making were proclaimed by the Church to be in error.

Edited May 9, 2005 by Pilgrim

[Aloysius]

Actually, I know perfectly well the terms substance and accidents, and flesh and blood do have a substance to them. How else in transubstantiation does the bread and wine still remain the accidents of bread and wine while taking the substance of flesh and blood? flesh and blood are substance, and such substance remains in the ressurected body. I don't know if the accidents remain the same or not but it is clear to me that we hold the same substance of flesh and blood in the ressurection.

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 9 2005, 03:26 PM'] How else in transubstantiation does the bread and wine still remain the accidents of bread and wine while taking the substance of flesh and blood?  flesh and blood are substance, and such substance remains in the ressurected body. [/quote]
Flesh and blood are not substances in and of themselves. They are predicable of the Real [i]Presence [/i]of Christ, which is the substance.

[quote]I don't know if the accidents remain the same or not but it is clear to me that we hold the same substance of flesh and blood in the ressurection.[/quote]

So... the Council of Orange and the subsequent teaching of the Magisterium is wrong?

Edited May 9, 2005 by Pilgrim

[Aloysius]

you haven't so much as quoted the council or anything from the magisterium, so I don't know really.

the Eucharist's substance is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus; not just His "presence". the substance of bread and wine is changed into the substance of the Body and Blood of Christ.

the phsyical attributes of flesh and blood are the accidents, but there is an inherent substance that makes them flesh and blood. this is all Aristotelian metaphysics right? where am I going wrong?

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 9 2005, 04:16 PM'] where am I going wrong? [/quote]
I've decided that I think we're pretty much saying the same thing, in more or less accurate terms.

My point -- if I may draw us back -- is that our glorified bodies certainly do not return to the state of bodies before the Fall. 'Original Innocence' will never be regained because we now share the knowledge of good and evil with God. The glorified body will be very much different than Adam and Eve's as it will be (1) glorified, not earthly as A&E's were, and (2) it will have been consumed [i]into God[/i], as it were, which A&E did not have the privilege of enjoying. A&E were mere creatures given dominion over the earth, but thanks to Christ's sacrifice, our glorified bodies will become part of God's divinity and will thus be higher even than the angels. The state of 'Original Innocence' was not this privileged.

[Aloysius]

true true. my point with the pre-fall comparison is that the physical bodies of Adam and Eve were elevated to a state above their nature before the fall, and afterwards they were at a state below their nature. in the ressurection it will be the physical bodies elevated much much farther beyond their nature than Adam and Eve ever were, but Christ's work was a reversal of original sin and as such that's the direction our natures head. they are restored to a perfect nature and elevated supernaturally above that nature basically reversing the effects of original sin and then even further glorified and brought into union with God. I still see some merit in the comparison though I admit it is not a full reversal to original innocence, but rather a complete reversal of the effects of original sin perfecting our natures, and then being supernaturally elevated beyond a perfect nature and beyond the supernatural experienc enjoyed by Adam and Eve.

[Pilgrim]

Ah, I think I see your point a little more clearly now. I think we both were closer to saying the same thing than we realized.

[Aloysius]

but if we had realized it it would have been no fun! great talkin with ya

[Margarite]

[quote] but if we had realized it it would have been no fun! great talkin with ya [/quote]

And some of us wouldn't have had such a great lesson about this topic. I must thank you greatly, every visit to my phamily makes me intelectually and spirtually so much richer.







:hearts: