OSAS vs. Confession

[mulls]

Catholics say that believing in OSAS allows one to lead a godless life because the person believes he is saved just because he said a sinner's prayer at some point in his life, and has no reason to change.

Non-catholics say that confession allows one to lead a godless life because a person can choose to live in sin, go to a priest and get the sins forgiven whenever he chooses, and then start all over again, without having to change.

I find this interesting. Discuss.

[Theoketos]

I find it interesting as well.

For if in the first case thier life is not changed, either God is not just because he allows the unrepentant into heaven...or they did not pray for real / with their whole heart. Both present serious challenges to that theology.

However, a serious Catholic would say that going to confession means that their is a serious conversion required. There should be a true desire never to sin again. Those that go to confession with intent of going to sin again are not really contrite and thus not absolved. So confession, at least in the real sense and not the protestant view, requires a change so that you can start over again and go to sin no more.

To be fair, to go and sin no more might be part of the sinner's prayer in the Protestant view point, but it is not a real changes, just something imputed.

edit
And I ask this because I do not know...How do you, mulls, account for the sins you commit every day after you have been saved? If you ask for forgiveness for them, why do you do so, because it seems that in your theology they would have already been forgiven.

Edited May 18, 2005 by Theoketos

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='May 18 2005, 10:10 AM'] However, a serious Catholic would say that going to confession means that their is a serious conversion required. There should be a true desire never to sin again. Those that go to confession with intent of going to sin again are not really contrite and thus not absolved. So confession, at least in the real sense and not the protestant view, requires a change so that you can start over again and go to sin no more. [/quote]
Indeed. Contrition is one of the main requirements for absolution. I have heard of priests refusing absolution because they did not feel or think that the penatent was truly contrite. Bearing that in mind there are two types of contrition: perfect and imperfect.

That being said, I am sure that the other side can say the same thing about their prayer.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2005, 10:43 AM']Non-catholics say that confession allows one to lead a godless life because a person can choose to live in sin, go to a priest and get the sins forgiven whenever he chooses, and then start all over again, without having to change.[/quote]
Just reminds me:

When I was in college, a evangelical friend invited me (the ignorant Catholic) to a speech given by an ex-Catholic who just railed on and on about the idea that he (as a Catholic) fould himself repeating the same sins, confessing them, and getting no where. He "knew" during his confession that he would keep sinning. I guess he didn't know that he was missing the point of confession!

In the "Act of Contrition" prayer that I use in the Confessional, I pray:
[quote]I am sorry for my sins with all my heart
In choosing to do wrong
and failing to do good,
I have sinned against you
whom I should love above all things.
I firmly intend, with your help,
[b]to do penance,
to sin no more,
and to avoid whatever leads me to sin.[/b]
Our Savior Jesus Christ
suffered and died for us.
In his name, my God, have mercy.[/quote]
I make three commitments in the act of contrition: (1) do penance, (2) sin no more, and (3) avoid whatever leads me to sin. If we "choose to live in sin" (i.e. intend to sin in the future), this proves that we are not contrite, and invalidates the sacrament. This lack of contrition (i.e. a bad confession) would then have to be confessed!

We sinners are stuck with concupiscence ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm"]link[/url]). This means that certain times in our lives, different sins can almost take over our lives. A life of sin is spiritual death. The grace derived from a sacramental confession shouldn't be abandoned, even if we keep falling (7 times 70 times...). When we fall into serious sin, there is no better medicine than an immediate trip to the confessional to receive that sacramental grace, and return to the state of grace, in friendship with God.

Generally, we sinners feel shame mentioning our sins. Having to confess our sins (as is comanded in verses like James 5:16, 1 John 1:9, etc) really isn't a very proud moment for most sinners. Contrary to the idea that Catholics would want to keep confessing their sins to a priest, confession is a great disincentive to sinning:
[quote name='John 3:19-20']And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.  For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.[/quote]

It's embarrasing to confess one's sins, and it's about as fun as going to the dentist. In fact, when I was a kid, I would have preferred to go to the dentist! But, just as healthy, sparkling white teeth don't happen without my "dental minister," healthy, sparkling white souls don't happen without a confessor, chosen by God to administer divine grace through His sacraments.

[guardsman]

Going to confession is very hard for me. If anything, it is an incentive to avoid sin. (As if we don't try to avoid sin, anyway)

[mulls]

for clarity, i'm trying to present a balanced view. i don't advocate OSAS or a sinner's prayer, per se.



[quote]And I ask this because I do not know...How do you, mulls, account for the sins you commit every day after you have been saved? If you ask for forgiveness for them, why do you do so, because it seems that in your theology they would have already been forgiven.[/quote]


by "account for" i'll assume you mean "seek repentance for."



5This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [b]9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. [/b]

[b]1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [/b]2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. [b]By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.[/b]

1 John 1:5-10, 2:1-6


i honestly don't know how to answer that in my own words. i think this says it all.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='James 5:16']Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.[/quote]
In this passage, we are healed (by the grace of God) through confessing our sins to others and having others pray for us. Mulls, I assume that you ask others to pray for you, but may I ask: do you confess all of your sins to other Christians so that God might heal you?

Do you believe that God can heal you through such a practice?

[mulls]

the context of that passage is faith. we confess our sins and have people pray for us because we believe God.

the previous verse to the one you quoted states "Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."

the healing, i believe, concerns a physical ailment. i don't know if you are asking if God will heal a physical ailment through confessing sins to Christians? or are you referring to a healing/forgiving of the soul kind of thing?

[Brother Adam]

I'll bite. You say the context of the passage: "Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." is 'faith'. If you say that it takes faith to confess your sins, then I agree. It's an excellent example of a sacrament. People often mistake confession for something that 'we do to earn heaven' which of course is not true. It is an example of stepping out in faith to go to the priest and confess your sins to God and receive absolution from the priest. It's a pattern seen throughout scripture. God reveals, we respond, God gives us grace.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2005, 03:07 PM']the context of that passage is faith. we confess our sins and have people pray for us because we believe God.

the previous verse to the one you quoted states "Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."[/quote]
Actually, you quoted two verses previous (James 5:14). Stepping back to the previous verse (5:15), the context is:
[quote name='James 5:15']and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up.  [b]If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.[/b][/quote]
So, this is basically laying out that "righteous men" can be conduits for God's forgiveness; not just a physical healing.

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2005, 03:07 PM']the healing, i believe, concerns a physical ailment. i don't know if you are asking if God will heal a physical ailment through confessing sins to Christians? or are you referring to a healing/forgiving of the soul kind of thing?[/quote]
I would agree with you that miraculous physical healing (for example, through the sacrament of the "Annointing of the Sick") can also be defended by this passage as Biblical.

But, I am specifically referring to the efficaciousness of the act of confessing our sins to the "presbyters of the church" (James 5:14. Vulgate: "presbyteros ecclesiae"), and God's ability (and decision) to allow His grace to work through them.

I asked my earlier question (do you confess your sins to other Christians?) to you because:
1) It would seem that this passage is recommending that such a practice is effective and provides forgiveness.
2) In my experience, sin in the shadows (i.e. unconfessed) can grow like a disease in the soul.

When I confess, a light--albeit uncomfortable--shines on me and my sins, and through this process, God's grace heals me of my past sins. Even if someone isn't a Catholic or even a Christian, I can't help but think that such a behavior as confessing our faults/sins/vices to others is a powerful way to grow and overcome them. I believe that that's one of the main points of the John 3:19,20.

[Mateo el Feo]

One small addition.

Though I may be mis-understanding OSAS, it's interesting that this passage appears to be referring to believers (already baptized) who are coming to God to ask for forgiveness for their sins.

If I'm already saved (a la OSAS), why would I still need God's forgiveness? Even more strange, why would I need "the fervent prayer of a righteous person"? Somehow, this seems to go against the idea that one is already saved, and completely forgiven by God at the point they said a heart-felt "I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior."

I'm not trying to be mean. I just don't have a good understanding of OSAS. Sorry...

[mulls]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='May 18 2005, 04:07 PM'] One small addition.

Though I may be mis-understanding OSAS, it's interesting that this passage appears to be referring to believers (already baptized) who are coming to God to ask for forgiveness for their sins.

If I'm already saved (a la OSAS), why would I still need God's forgiveness? Even more strange, why would I need "the fervent prayer of a righteous person"? Somehow, this seems to go against the idea that one is already saved, and completely forgiven by God at the point they said a heart-felt "I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior."

[/quote]
thats why i posted the 1 John verses above. we're supposed to be being like Christ, walking in light, not sinning. if we're deliberately sinning, we're in darkness, not where God calls us or wants us to be.

we're not supposed to sin, but we do, we stumble, and Christ is our advocate for God to forgive us and we can get back on the paths of righteousness.


by the way, I do confess my sins to other Christians. not often, but I do. obviously if I sin personally against someone, I should repent to them as well as God, which I have done in the recent past.

also, last semester, me and a few of my friends were having a prayer meeting. we were just starting, and I was about to pray, but I knew I couldn't because I needed to confess something publicly. something that I have repented to God for but always ended up getting stuck in repeatedly. anyway, I repented to God before my friends, and that was the jump off....the Holy Spirit ended up convicting us all of certain things that night, having us all repent before God and before each other, and we all got seriously ministered to.

accountability is the real deal. we need to keep God first, but confessing to others is certainly legit and certainly powerful. but I would not mix up confessing sins to others as a way of confessing it to God personally and receiving forgiveness--though I'm sure that is definately an option as it was that night for me and my friends.

I keep it between me and God first, and if I discern or am prompted to confess to others, I'll do so.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2005, 04:32 PM']I keep it between me and God first, and if I discern or am prompted to confess to others, I'll do so.[/quote]
I can only speak for myself and say that there is a strong temptation to "discern" not to confess the very sins that thrive in the shadows. :ph34r: Vices are tough stuff...

That said, I think that it is great that you are confessing your sins; because I think that you will find a great reward for doing so.

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2005, 04:32 PM']we need to keep God first, but confessing to others is certainly legit and certainly powerful. but I would not mix up confessing sins to others as a way of confessing it to God personally and receiving forgiveness[/quote]
I don't know if I understand what you are saying here. The passage in James talks of a believer confessing sins to the presbyters of the Church (v14) so that God can grant forgiveness through this act (v15).

PS--I wonder if dUSt will find forgiveness for taking away your un-beatable high-score on basketball in the Phatmass Arcade...

[mulls]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='May 18 2005, 05:18 PM']
I don't know if I understand what you are saying here. The passage in James talks of a believer confessing sins to the presbyters of the Church (v14) so that God can grant forgiveness through this act (v15).

[/quote]
i think the point i'm trying to make is that the danger lies in confessing to somebody just to maybe get this sin off of your chest, and relieve the burden of it, though never seeking true repentance from God.

like saying "yo mat, i just knocked this dude out, i really wish i hadn't done that, just thought i should tell you that." i don't think that would fly with the Lord as far as forgiveness is concerned.

i'm NOT saying that confessing to others isn't a legit form of repentance. personally, i want to make sure its between me and the Lord first, because obviously i can't try to pull anything on God, if i'm gonna tell Him something I'm gonna be sincere about it. or if i go to somebody to repent, i'm letting them know that it's between me and the Lord.


[quote]PS--I wonder if dUSt will find forgiveness for taking away your un-beatable high-score on basketball in the Phatmass Arcade...[/quote]

WHAAAAATTTTT?!?!

i just noticed this travesty!!

DUST IS A HATER!!!

just cuz nobody on PM can hang with my skills!


ehh maybe i'll forgive him

[Brother Adam]

"i think the point i'm trying to make is that the danger lies in confessing to somebody just to maybe get this sin off of your chest, and relieve the burden of it, though never seeking true repentance from God."

Mulls,

This is why the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) is so crucial, it helps us to know that we are truly repentant. I can mumble a few words of "I'm sorry" to God, but it is so much easier to let things 'slide' when we operate in a system that doesn't require confession. The priestly power of absolution conferred first on Peter and the Apostles by Jesus Christ allows the priest to tell the person who is saying "umm yeah, I murdered this dude and I'd do it again" to say "You are not repentant therefore God would not forgive your sins and I cannot grant absolution."

In order for a confession to be valid there must be an act of contrition which includes our sorrow for our sin, our love for God, our firm resolve to make amends and to sin no more and to avoid the near occassion of sin. It must also include a time of penance in order to be complete. It's all there for a reason, it is a beautiful sacrament akin to the prodigal son tearfully coming back home. If you have time you should read the about the process of making a confession from the examine of conscience to the penance. I know in my own life it has made all the difference and I understand today more than ever the need for a daily conversion towards Christ in our lives.

[mulls]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='May 18 2005, 06:25 PM']

This is why the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) is so crucial, it helps us to know that we are truly repentant. [/quote]
i think you have to re-state this sentence, because right now i want to take it to mean that we don't really have to be repentant going into the act of confession, but once we are there, we'll be convinced...."oh, yeah.....I really am sorry. Wow. I wasn't going to be sorry but now that I am here I know that I am truly repentant."

and i know that's not what you mean.

but hey at least i'm man enough to admit it when i misinterpret someone

[Brother Adam]

Sure. Okay so let's say I go over to my friends house and get drunk and smoke pot. The next morning I get out of bed and am like "Wow, I sinned against God, and I need to confess that sin and get right with God again". Now, personal confession is a wonderful practice that we all need to be in the habit of, but with personal practice alone I can go sit down for a minute and say "God, I am really, really, really, really sorry and I promise never to do it again" get up and be on with our lives without any true conversion, and maybe no true repentance taking place, especially if for the next 10 nights in a row we go do the same thing (a discussion on habits and addictions aside).

Now, let's look again at the words and deeds the sacrament of confession draws us to and compare it to what personal prayer almost always ends up being for most non-Catholics and even many Catholics.

The examination of conscience: We sit down and according to a formula exam our life. The ten commandments is a classic guide to confession. For instance under the first commandment: Did I love money more then God? Was I greedy? Did I spend adequate time in prayer? Have I tried to follow Christ and mold myself to his life? Have I done my best to follow God's will? The examination allows us to better see out shortfalls and how we have grown.

Then we enter the confessional and the priest greets us. Not as someone to slap us on the hand, but as a Christian brother to warmly welcome and embrace us as God's child. We say "Bless me Father for I have sinned it has been ______ since my last confession". We then offer up to God all of our shortcomings, most especially any mortal sins (those sins which are of a very grave nature, which we did intentionally, with full knowledge and full consent). The priest listens closely and then offers any pastoral advice linked to problems we may be having. He gives us a penance, often time to spend in personal prayer for others or for the whole church, sometimes works of mercy. The priest asks us to make an act of contrition and offers the words of absolution - that God has indeed forgiven us of our sins and to go and sin no more.

The point here being that if we are not truly repentant - then the priest will not grant absolution. If I say "Yeah I murdered him in cold blood and I'll do it again too if I had the chance" does not show true repentance. Confessing our sins to a priest helps us to realize our own sorrow for sin, and the grace of confession as a sacrament helps dispose us to live a holier life. Compared to the man who just prays for a few minutes saying he is sorry, such a realization may not be made, and the grace of the sacrament is lacking. The growth experienced through the sacrament is not experienced the same as in personal prayer and confession.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

very nice explanation Adam.

I am curious mulls what your views are on what Jesus said to the Apostles at Pentecost when he breathed on them (done only one other time in Scriptures) and gave them the Holy Spirit and said "Whos sins you forgive, they are forgiven.."

And also in scriptures where St. Paul says (my own words) he is the ear of reconciliation..ok, im at work so cant look it up word for word, hopefully Bro Adam will bail me out hehe.

mulls, thank you for questioning and being respectable. I really enjoy reading your dialog.

God Bless

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Bump for mulls

[mulls]

CF

thanks for the kind words

the moment you speak on was not Pentecost, since the Lord had not yet ascended, but that's besides the point...

[quote]21Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you." 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld." [/quote]


Here Jesus is sending out the disciples with the message of the gospel. People can only receive forgiveness through the message of the gospel....repentance and faith in Christ. Since the gospel is the standard of forgiveness, it seems that Jesus is giving them the ability to declare sins forgiven, on account of people's belief, or declare them unforgiven, on account of people's unbelief. I don't think this implies the ability to do the actually forgiving, but rather the declaration of fact: someone's sins either are or are not forgiven, based on faith in Christ.

You'll have to find me that Paul reference if you want me to comment on that too. Peace.

Edited May 20, 2005 by mulls