OSAS vs. Confession

[Briguy]

Adam, I know you are busy but you really did not answer the questions. Your answer was generic at best and did not sound like it came from your heart. My "eternal" argument poses a real problem to your way of thinking. Again, eternal has to be forever, it just has to. If the person John was writing to can KNOW they have eternal life they can KNOW they are saved forever, Once they know it is forever it can't end, no matter who wants it to end. That is a real argument from scripture and if you can't look at the verses and offer an alternate interpretation then your loss of salvation theology is in trouble. Give me something solid to chew on Adam, so I know that you have addressed the verses in question and not just restated your theology.

Mulls, this is just a thought and not what I am saying I believe because I am still pondering and praying about my real feeling about what election means. Anyway, could it be that those who go forward at an alter call but have no life change simply are just not ordained by God to believe. The verses from Acts I used say that those who were ordained, believed. Perhaps that is what happens. For me and you, we changed when we placed our faith in Christ, because WE WERE ordained to believe. Think about that in terms of what our good Catholic brothers/sisters have said about enduring to the end. It is a sound theology and worth exploring further. Brother Mulls, keep searching and growing!!!

In Christian Love,
Brian

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 25 2005, 08:43 AM']That is a real argument from scripture and if you can't look at the verses and offer an alternate interpretation then your loss of salvation theology is in trouble.[/quote]
This was directed to Adam; but I'll respond.

Catholic teaching on Salvation can be summarized by the following (quoting [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp"]Catholic.com--link[/url]):
[quote]Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.[/quote]
Can we "know" we are saved? Mulls has already cited an example of someone who thought they were saved, but were not. I quoted Our Lord in the Gospel of Saint Matthew--more examples. Mulls seems to indicate that others can be mistaken, but he himself cannot.

Mulls is on the right path when he examines his conscience for offenses/sins he has commited. Though, I wonder what the merit in such a practice would be if his salvation did not depend on sins commited after "accepting Jesus." The practice of an interior reflection of our faults is appropriate and fruitful in the context of the Christian sacrament of Confession, through which God's forgiveness flows and cleanses us of our sins and returns us to a state of grace (i.e. friendship with God).

[b]Loss of Salvation[/b]

The same Catholic.com link mentioned above also provides the following text:
[quote]Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; [i]otherwise you too will be cut off[/i]" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).[/quote]
So, was Saint Paul being inspired by the Holy Spirit when he wrote these words? What can he mean by "being cut off"? Do particular verses from 1 John contradict this, or is it that a particular interpretation is contradictory? I would suggest that St. Paul--along with Our Lord himself--regards baptism as the beginning of a believer's journey to salvation (eternal life) in heaven, not the end.

From the perspective of a Catholic, the whole idea of "loss of Salvation" is faulty to begin with, because it assumes that salvation has already been obtained by a living individual. Without citing the many New Testament passages that refute this, I would simply say that neither the Church nor the Holy Bible teach that we are finally saved before our [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm"]Particular Judgment (link)[/url].

From the OSAS perspective, Catholic teaching can appear to espouse an idea of the "loss of Salvation." In fact, what an individual does lose when they mortally sin is sanctifying grace--not salvation. So, in a sense, Catholics believe in OSAS; but, this means that we are saved "once" at the end of our earthly lives.

As an answer to the "Are Catholics Saved?" question, Catholic.com (at the bottom of the "Assurance of Salvation" link) explains how Catholics were saved (past), are being saved (present), and will be saved (future).

To try and create a bridge of understanding between Catholics and non-Catholics, I would say the following about my own faith journey. Christ's sacrafice on Calvary was the event that "saved" me. In no way diminishing that fact, through the waters of Baptism, I was given sanctifying grace and began my relationship with Our Lord. Through other sacraments (especially Confession and Holy Eucharist), God granted me forgiveness of my past sins and gave me the strength to build my relationship with Him. I trust that if I remain faithful to Him, I will return to Him at the end of my earthly journey, and live in His Love into eternity.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]
I wonder what the merit in such a practice would be if his salvation did not depend on sins commited after "accepting Jesus."
[/quote]

thats a very good point. If there is such a thing as OSAS, then why would Jesus give the Apostles the Power to forgive sins? What would be the purpose since His death freed us from any sin by simply believing in Him?

Doesnt that break the whole OSAS concept? "I said my 'Lord..personal savior..' prayer now..lets go do dumb stuff!" OSAS says we can do that and still inherit heaven.

However, thats not what Scriptures says. Many quotes from scripture have proven that above my thread here. But the main one that OSAS people love to over look is the 'Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will inherit heaven'

Who were those people crying 'Lord, Lord' but didnt inherit heaven? Those that didnt truely follow God's call. Those that still sinned after accepting Him. Those that break away from the foundation Christ layed for us. Those that believe in OSAS.

Those that are in sin will loose the inheritance of Heaven. Only us confessing our sins can we be reconciled to God once again.


It was sin by Adam that put us to Death, Christ brought us back, but sin is still in the World. So this sin, breaks us away from God again. Only Confession can bring us back. See how awesome God is? He doesnt give up but rather gives us ways to come back because He knows we will fall.

[Briguy]

Good posts but you can't answer a question by stating theological beliefs. You need to address the scriptures I have used that say directly that a person can KNOW they have eternal life. If they know it is eternal then it is forever or you have just changed what eternal is. It is the same word used to describe God, the ETERNAL GOD. I want to respond to your posts but want you to offer an explanation directly to the verses in question.

Thanks much, In Christ,
Brian

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 26 2005, 08:42 AM']Good posts but you can't answer a question by stating theological beliefs. You need to address the scriptures I have used that say directly that a person can KNOW they have eternal life. If they know it is eternal then it is forever or you have just changed what eternal is. It is the same word used to describe God, the ETERNAL GOD. I want to respond to your posts but want you to offer an explanation directly to the verses in question.
[/quote]
Our Lord repeatedly warns the disciples that individuals who think they "know" that they are saved will be lost in eternity. We've provided scriptural proof (not merely "theological beliefs"), both in the Gospels and in the Pauline Epistles.

There's an isolated verse (1 John 5:13) that "appears" to contradict the constant teaching of the rest of the Holy Scriptures. So, either the Holy Bible has a contradiction, or you are misinterpreting the passage to have a meaning that was not intended by the Holy Spirit.

The link previously mentioned already addresses 1 John 5:13 (From [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp"]Catholic.com--link[/url]):
[quote]Related to the issue of whether one can lose one’s salvation is the question of whether one can know with complete certainty that one is in a state of salvation. Even if one could not lose one’s salvation, one still might not be sure whether one ever had salvation. Similarly, even if one could be sure that one is [i]now [/i]in a state of salvation, one might be able to fall from grace in the future. The "knowability" of salvation is a different question than the "loseability" of salvation.

From the Radio Bible Class listeners can obtain a booklet called [i]Can Anyone Really Know for Sure?[/i] The anonymous author says the "Lord Jesus wanted his followers to be so sure of their salvation that they would rejoice more in the expectation of heaven than in victories on earth. ‘These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).’"

Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter. Even the author of [i]Can Anyone Really Know for Sure?[/i] admits that there is a false assurance: "The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)." [/quote]
Even the cited "Radio Bible Class" booklet admits to a possibility for false assurance, and quotes the same verses that we Catholics quote. If you would like to believe them when they state the same thing, that would be just fine, too.

Though Catholics should not live in despair regarding their salvation, neither should we fall into the sin of presumption. This is a case of avoiding the extremes, and living in the virtues of hope and humility.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='May 26 2005, 10:24 AM'] Our Lord repeatedly warns the disciples that individuals who think they "know" that they are saved will be lost in eternity. [/quote]
Let me edit this sentence so it makes sense!

Our Lord repeatedly warns the disciples that [u]some [/u]individuals who think they "know" that they are saved will be lost in eternity.

[Briguy]

OK, so the answer to my argument is that it is an isolated, misinterpreted scripture???

If that is the best answer I will accept that.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 27 2005, 08:53 AM']OK, so the answer to my argument is that it is an isolated, misinterpreted scripture???

If that is the best answer I will accept that.[/quote]
The only other alternative is that the Holy Scriptures are self-contradicting. Is that your position?

[Briguy]

Actually, I believe that the scriptures as a whole say just what the verse says. I see no contradiction what-so-ever. I think, for the Christian the bible teaches eternal security plainly. "He who has ears, let him hear" (not a direct quote - just me speaking) Since this scripture and argument seem clear, even to you perhaps its what you think other parts of scripture are saying that is wrong here. Could be a good time to take a deeper look at some passages you have thought meant you could not be sure or that you can lose your salvation. Just a thought anyway

In Christ,
Brian

[Mateo el Feo]

Catholic teaching on this subject [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp"](nicely layed out in this link)[/url] permeates through the entire New Testament. Further, the interpretations contrary to Catholic teaching (e.g. OSAS, eternal security) must necessarily ignore Our Lords words in the Gospels, because so many of His statements and parables are directed toward those who are deceiving themselves and have a "luke warm" faith (Rev. 3:15,16).

In fact, even if we ignore that Our Lord's words do not support the theory of eternal security/OSAS, we could isolate the discussion to Saint Paul's writings and still easily disprove eternal security/OSAS.

Finally, the Catholic.com website quotes a protestant source ("Can Anyone Really Know for Sure?") that admits to this possibility of self-deception. Mulls (not yet a Catholic ) also admitted that others can deceive themselves, though he hasn't "seen the log in his own eye" on this particular issue.

I would enjoy discussing this further with you (digging deeper into the issues), if you would like. I'm just an amateur next to so many here, but I learn more when I see everyone else's contributions to topics like this.

[Brother Adam]

Okay...just some ramblings.

I hate to leave this topic by having just run in circles until they drop. Really, I think we run into brick walls because Brian and Mulls whole entire worldview on salvation is dramatically non-covenantal whereas the Catholic worldview is. We are taking off from two different spots and it is to understand why Brian would come to a different conclusion than we would. It took me a long time of hard study to figure it out when Catholics kept telling me that I just wasn't getting the Catholic understanding of soteriology to finally get it all to click, and then I had to be completely intellectually open to at least fully understanding what Catholics believed.

While Brian is free to correct me, if our understandings are the same as when I was a Baptist, he also believes in the Trinity and that Jesus came to pay the full penalty for sin and suffered, died, resurrected, and ascended into heaven. The Apostles then, left with the full deposit, began to teach the message of Christ and writing it down for it to be transmitted from generation to generation by way of Scripture Alone. For a baptist understanding of salvation we look primarily to the Pauline epistles, especially how Paul lays out sin and salvation in Romans. Any passages that speak of a salvation by faith and belief take prominance and then we get an understanding of Faith Alone. All other passages such as Mt 7:21, John 3:5, and 1 Peter 3:21, cannot in any way contradict what he have first understood from the popular salvation passages (Romans 3,6,8; Ephesians 2:8-9 for instance).

Because of our understanding of salvation within the context of the New Covenant we don't find verses such as "You may know you have eternal life" to be problematic because we look at them from the view of "Yeah, we know if we die right now that we will be in heaven with God". Where as Brian looks at it as "If you trusted in Christ as your personal Lord and Savior you are living eternal life right now and know with assurance no matter what you will go to heaven when you die." Brian would say that this doesn't trump the need for Christians to bear good fruits, but if the person genuinely became a Christian there will be good fruits, out of necessity to his understanding of salvation a genuinely saved Christian will not commit a sin such as apostasy, though there may be times of sin and doubt.

Our Catholic view of salvation sees it as our liberation from evil and filial love of the Father bringing us into a family relationship with Him and all other Christians. We directly connect salvation to santifying grace and adopted sonship and eternal life as a result of our final salvation when we die a physical death and begin our life with God in heaven. In essance we really see a whole 'salvation history' that began with Adam and Eve, to Abraham, to the Jewish people, and extends to us as Christians today. We see the coming of Christ as not obliterating the old covenants, but as fulfilling them and so we still see our salvation within the context of a covenant. We then see the Church as our family and the sacraments as means of actual grace which are instituted by Christ. They are outward signs of an inward change.

I think it can often confuse Protestants when they ask "Are you saved?" and "Do you accept Jesus as the only way to the Father" and "Do you have a personal relationship with Him" and we respond with a resounding "Yes!" It is confusing because what they see in our faith [b]seems[/b] to contradict those Pauline passages of "confessing with your lips" and "not by works". To an outsider looking in, it sure looks an awful lot like we are trying to strictly merit our salvation by all we do. It doesn't make sense when we say it is necessary to always be at mass on Sunday if we reject "a works salvation". I think we need to help our brothers in the faith in our ecumenical dialogue understand properly our work in the liturgy of giving glory and honor to God, and the work of God in the liturgy in the sacraments. We see our salvation so permeated in the liturgy and in the scriptures that it is apart of everythign we do, whereas our non-Catholic friends see salvation in a completely focused view having to do with altar calls and sinners prayers. We need to find a way to effectively sort these many differences out so we can get to the root of the theology and see how in many ways we are dramatically similiar. Now yeah, I was able to do this, but look at my bookshelves. We need to find a way to do this that is shorter and simple to understand and effects a dramatic change and conversion in the hearts of our seperated brethren.