OSAS vs. Confession

[Brother Adam]

Now mulls, you know you wouldn't let us get away with such an "well, it doesn't really say that because I think it says this" explanation.

More appropriately this passage indicates that they will specifically act in persona christi (in the person of Christ) after he has ascended into heaven. As Christ once said "You're sins are forgiven, Pick up your mat, go and sin no more", now the Apostles are given the power to do so in the name of Christ. The radical idea of actually forgiving sins is reserved to God alone, so when Jesus said "Your sins are forgiven" the Jews immediately thought him to be a blasphemer. We know that because he was God he could forgive sins, and the Apostles in his place, and those who succeeded the Apostles through the laying on of hands also have this ability. Jesus actually meant what he said.

[mulls]

Bro,

I'm not seeing anything in your explanation that makes in any more or any less acceptable than mine.

how is persona christi indicated here?

how is apostolic succession specifically indicated here, as opposed to a command for all believers to follow (i.e. preaching the gospel)?

[Scofizzle]

From Catholics Uniter for faith:

Through the Sacrament of Baptism, a person is cleansed of original sin and receives the "grace of a new birth in God the Father, through His Son, in the Holy Spirit" (St. Irenaeus as cited in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 683). Through this regeneration in water and the Spirit, a person becomes a Christian, born again as a son or daughter of God (Jn. 3:3-6; Rom. 8:14-17).

After becoming a child of God, one may freely damage or break off his relationship with God through sin. Whereas venial sin damages our relationship with God, mortal sin actually severs the relationship through the loss of God’s supernatural life of grace within us (cf.1 Jn. 5:16-17; Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 1854-64).

When a person chooses to kill that life of grace through mortal sin, God, who is full of mercy, seeks to reconcile His prodigal son or daughter to Himself (cf. Lk. 15:11-32). God alone can forgive sins (Catechism, no. 1441), yet he empowered the Apostles and their successors (bishops and priests) to carry out His ministry of reconciliation (cf. 2 Cor. 5:18-21). St. John writes:

[Jesus said,] "As the Father has sent Me [with all authority, Mt. 28:18], even so I send you." And with this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (Jn. 20:21-23; cf. Lk. 10:16; Mt. 16:19, 28:18-20).

The Church’s power to bind and loose (Mt.16:19, 18:18) provides further scriptural evidence for this sacrament. As the Church has taught for 2,000 years, the priest exercises his ministry in persona Christi (that is, in the person of Christ). This means that in confessing one’s sins to a priest, one truly confesses one’s sins to Christ Himself and receives pardon from God. Because the priest acts in persona Christi, he is the spiritual head or "father" of the community (cf. 1 Cor. 4:14-15). Thus, Confession reconciles us with Christ and His Body, the Church, whom we have wounded by sin.

Sin is never a private matter, since it always disrupts the order of creation and the whole community (cf. 1 Cor. 5:1-6). Through Christ, the priest forgives the sinner in the name of the whole community, the Body of Christ. "Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God" (Catechism, no.1445). In his New Testament Epistle, St. James exhorts us, "[C]onfess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed" (Jas. 5:16).

Though venial sins are remitted through the reception of Holy Communion (Catechism, no. 1394), the Church recommends that all the faithful, even those who are not conscious of having committed a mortal sin, make frequent Confession (Catechism, no. 1458). The Sacrament of Confession is one of healing. It makes us aware of our sinfulness and our dependence on God; therefore it is vital to receive the sacrament frequently in order to advance in holiness. One of the precepts of the Church is that all the faithful are bound by obligation to confess "grave" sins at least once a year.1 It is also very important to note that those who are conscious of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion without having first received absolution in Confession, "unless [there is] a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possible way of going to Confession" (Catechism, no. 1457).

Again, sin is not a solitary matter, nor does any Christian have a "God-and-me-alone" relationship with the Father (1 Cor. 12:12-26). Confessing our sins within the Body of Christ allows us to reconcile with God and strengthen the Church, providing a witness so that all may turn and repent (2 Pet. 3:9).



Sorry I had to post something from somewhere else I am not very Articulate....

[mulls]

I understand.


but what is the condition for forgiveness? is it not belief in the gospel, faith in Christ?

[Brother Adam]

No. It is genuine metanioa.

[mulls]

can you please define that word for us common folk, oh learned one?

[Brother Adam]

I typically don't take well to sarcasm, but since you said please, it is a Greek word that simply refers to repentance and conversion, a very common word in the New Testament.

[mulls]

so genuine metanoia....repentance and conversion....in light of what? is it not the gospel?

[Brother Adam]

We seem to have gotten quite sidetracted, but here is the thing. Just because one believes in the gospel, does not automatically mean they will repent and obey (turn from their sin). Satan knows better than we do that Jesus is the Messiah and all that he did for humanity, there is a certian assent that Jesus is the Christ, but there is no genuine faith. If you were to say that with faith there must be an obedience Christ in the fullness to all of what Christ calls us to I would agree. Cafeteria Christianism is no true Christian faith.

But let me ask this on a side note while I continue to think about this topic. Is a genuine Christian capable of apostasy?

[mulls]

agreed, Jesus did say "repent and believe in the Gospel," for a reason.




is a genuine Christian capable of apostasy? geez....i'm afraid we'll just start arguing over what makes a genuine Christian i suppose.


but no, i don't believe a genuine Christian can fall into apostasy. i believe one who leaves the faith never actually had the faith, though they have full knowledge of the truth and have been touched and drawn by the Holy Spirit, as in Hebrews 6.

1 Timothy and 2 Thessalonians says that apostasy is real, and people will leave.

but of false Christian teachers/believers, 1 John 2:19 says "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

so i would hold that those who fall into apostasy were "not of us" to begin with, and were deceived themselves into thinking they were really believers.

[Brother Adam]

Good, that helps me understand where you are coming better. Let me think on how to respond unless someone beats me to it tonight. God Bless your day.

[mulls]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='May 23 2005, 08:41 AM'] Good, that helps me understand where you are coming better. Let me think on how to respond unless someone beats me to it tonight. God Bless your day. [/quote]
i look foward to it. and i need that blessing because i got two wisdom teeth pulled this morning.

[Brother Adam]

Okay, three things I have been thinking about. Are they straight from scripture, no, but I believe they deserve attention.

The first problem I see with OSAS, is that it creates a determined soul. We first agree that a person can still turn from their sinful ways and have faith in Christ until they die, at which time their eternal destiny is determined. Before death though, we are still working out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). By saying we are OSAS, we lose free will and become determined. No where does the Bible imply that after we make a proclamation of faith do we lose free will, including serious sin, which Paul in 1 John 3 states that we cannot be reconciled for that simply by prayer. So we know that this mortal sin can't simply be "sin that causes physical death".

The second problem is that there is no true assurance of salvation in experience. Experience tells us that no person can truly know if they are saved because those who have lead good and decent Christian lives, who have given good testimony of their "Faith Alone in Christ Alone" conversion, later in life abandon the faith or find "they didn't really do it right" because they fell into serious sin. So no one can truly know that they don't fall in this catagory.

On the flip side a Catholic has the assurance of eternal life. We can know at any time if we have mortally sinned and need to return as the prodigal son did, or if we are going to inherit eternal life if we died at that time. I know right now with absolute certianity that if I die right now I will inherit eternal life. OSAS just doesn't afford such an assurance because there is no way to know for sure. Saying that a person has 'good works' just doesn't cut it because we cannot, in Christian philosophy, make man so he is not free. As the old illustration goes, God doesn't want robots worshipping Him, so if man, even after adopted sonship, chooses to reject God, God honors that request. Jesus has not lost one of his own, but one of his own has chosen to deny Him.

God Bless.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 23 2005, 06:16 PM'] i look foward to it. and i need that blessing because i got two wisdom teeth pulled this morning. [/quote]
Hey, I just read this, I was typing for a long time. I'm sorry you had to have those pulled. My best friend got them pulled a couple of years ago and looked like a chipmunk. He didn't think it was funny. I thought it was halarious. Then he punched me in the arm. lol

[mulls]

i don't think a "determined soul" as you put it negates free will. we make a choice to accept our salvation, and we believe in God's promises once we make that choice. Paul obviously says alot of predestination, calling, election, etc.

i posted the following in the Romans 8:30 thread, i think it's relevant here, even as a reply to the rest of your post...



[quote]11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 3:11-14[/quote]


people can be disobedient, and not do what they're supposed to do....like works which will not bear fruit and instead be burned up, and still be saved.



For the record, I don't think you'll find any sort of serious Christian anywhere who would advocate just "being saved," and then not acting on/in God's will. Those who say "I prayed a prayer to accept Jesus so I'm fine" should examine themselves, that they're calling an election is made sure, and that they're not deceiving themselves into thinking they are in a proper relationship with the Lord.

Proponents of eternal security do not promote a lifestyle of arrogance or laziness or disobedience. They simply give glory to God for the fact that nothing and nobody can take away what Christ has done for us.

People do backslide and fall away for a time, but God can and will restore them (Prodigal son). That's when we need to go to Christ to forgive us and " cleanse us from all unrightouesness," for he is able (1 John 1:9).

Of those who turn their back on the faith and fall into apostasy, it is believed that they were never apart of the faith to begin with, and were deceived just as they deceived others.

[Briguy]

Acts 13
[46] Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
[47] For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
[48] And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[49] And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

1 John 5
[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Adam, I asked you to explain the scriptures from Acts above on the Romans thread but you did not. I also used the verses from 1 John to make a clear logic argument but again no real response to it. At least not another way to look at the verses in question. From 1 John we see that we can KNOW we have eternal life. Once we know it it has to be eternal or eternal does not mean forever, which it does. So, These words were written to those who were alive and had faith in Christ, not those who were dying or just died. We see that we CAN KNOW or John is all messed up. No, he said we can know and he said what we could know is that we have eternal life. Since eternal is forever we CAN KNOW we are saved forever.

I will give you a chance to respond again on this thread. Oh, in the first set of verses I am showing that God ordained who would believe. There is something to "election" and it can't be swept under the rug because of free will. We must find a unity in both ideas. Anyway, explain another interpretation of the verses, besides the obvious.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 24 2005, 11:40 AM']I also used the verses from 1 John to make a clear logic argument but again no real response to it. At least not another way to look at the verses in question. From 1 John we see that we can KNOW we have eternal life. Once we know it it has to be eternal or eternal does not mean forever, which it does. So, These words were written to those who were alive and had faith in Christ, not those who were dying or just died. We see that we CAN KNOW or John is all messed up. No, he said we can know and he said what we could know is that we have eternal life. Since eternal is forever we CAN KNOW we are saved forever.[/quote]
I find that some Protestants are comfortable in presuming that their own Salvation is guaranteed.

Mulls provided a quote to temper this belief:
[quote name='mulls']but of false Christian teachers/believers, 1 John 2:19 says "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

so i would hold that those who fall into apostasy were "not of us" to begin with, and were deceived themselves into thinking they were really believers.[/quote]

It's very easy to believe that others can deceive themselves. Such cases are mentioned throughout the New Testament. For example:
[quote name='Matthew 7:21-23']Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.  Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you.  Depart from me, you evildoers.'[/quote]

But, it's dangerous to think that only [i]other people[/i] are subject to being deceived. When I read the above passage in the Gospel of St. Matthew, I don't read it as a warning that other people could be deceived. I read it as a warning to me: I could be deceived! I would support my position by citing an earlier verse:
[quote name='Matthew 7:2']For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.[/quote]
In other words: if I can judge that others could be deceived, I should expect that I would be subject to the same deception.

If one takes an extreme view of "Assurance of Salvation" (based on the cited 1 John 5 verses), how can that be reconciled with the many verses in which Our Lord condemns those who believe themselves to be assured of their own salvation?

[mulls]

We should be just as cautious in examining our own selves to make sure we are not deceived. i have been doing this lately, because of this recent discussion as well as some conviction from scripture and experiences i've had on campus this past year with people "accepting Christ," then not doing a thing about it.

I clearly remember the day, nearly 3 years ago, when I came to know the Lord. It was an altar call atmosphere....I heard the gospel preached as a church for the 2nd week in a row, and the pastor invited people to accept the Lord.

I understood the message, understood my condition of sin, how my soul was headed to hell, and my unworthiness. And by God's grace, I understood that Christ came to bear my sin, and by repenting and believing I could be saved. So I gave it up right there in my seat, and I know that my conversion was sincere, the foundation of Christ was laid in my life (not a foundation of religiosity, or being pressured into doing something, or wanting to be accepted by people) and I've been building on that foundation through God's grace.

I witnessed many more people that summer apparently "get saved" at similar altar calls, but then I would never see them in church again. We must beware of false conversions. We must be sure to count the cost before we make a decision to have faith in Christ. We can't force people into praying a prayer, then deciding to tell them how hard it is to follow the Lord. People must understand how truly narrow that gate is. By grace, I understood it on that day, and the Lord saved me. He had been preparing me, burdening and convicting me of my sin, making me aware that I was totally lost, then He rescued me.

That is my tale. I know that I am not deceived. I don't presume to know everything or to say that I will never fall into errant doctrine, but yet I have faith in the scriptures that by "testing everything" and by the Holy Spirit's guidance I will live a pleasing and acceptable life in the name of Christ.

How do I know I am in Christ? 1 John 2:3-- "And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments."

I do my best to walk with the Lord. When I screw up, I confess. This is really the only way we can know that we know God, or know that other people know God. But even that is hard because many people do all sorts of good works in Christ's name, but many will say "Lord, Lord...." and we know how the rest goes.

We can't see people's foundation, only the exterior of the house. Our foundation must be Christ, and if it is, we will continue in Him. We must exhort others in the same way.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 24 2005, 11:40 AM'] Acts 13
[46] Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
[47] For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
[48] And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[49] And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

1 John 5
[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Adam, I asked you to explain the scriptures from Acts above on the Romans thread but you did not. I also used the verses from 1 John to make a clear logic argument but again no real response to it. At least not another way to look at the verses in question. From 1 John we see that we can KNOW we have eternal life. Once we know it it has to be eternal or eternal does not mean forever, which it does. So, These words were written to those who were alive and had faith in Christ, not those who were dying or just died. We see that we CAN KNOW or John is all messed up. No, he said we can know and he said what we could know is that we have eternal life. Since eternal is forever we CAN KNOW we are saved forever.

I will give you a chance to respond again on this thread.  Oh, in the first set of verses I am showing that God ordained who would believe. There is something to "election" and it can't be swept under the rug because of free will. We must find a unity in both ideas. Anyway, explain another interpretation of the verses, besides the obvious.

In Love and Truth,
Brian [/quote]
We already know that only 'he who endures to the end will be saved' (Matt 24:13) and "we are not saved by faith alone" (James 2:24) and that the only thing that counts is "faith working in love" (Gal 5:6). You are right that our election does not trump free will, it is what I have been poorly attempting to get at all along. Even after adopted sonship (initial salvation), we still have free will to commit all sorts of grevious sin, even falling away (apostasy). St. Paul tells us though that we who are capable of such grevious sin should not sin just because grace may abound. So clearly we are capable even after believing of rejecting Christ.

The measure of this predestination is not "did you accept Christ as your savior" it is those who "endure to the end". This is why works are necessary for final salvation (Matt 10:22; Mk 8:35). God yes, already knows who will endure until the end, however we as Christians must continue to work out our salvation. We know that each man will be repaid according to his works (Romans 2:5-8).

To your "eternal life" note, just as Jesus said "I will be with you [b]until[/b] the end of the age" we know that Jesus is not abandoning us, ever. So a proper understanding of salvation is in order, and why the prodigal son story is important. Yes, we are Christians, yes, we can foresake our inheritance. We are adopted children of God, but we are not yet living our inheritance now. When we die we wil live in heaven at the wedding feast of the lamb forever. Our life though is not "forever". We have a beginning though we will have no end. We live as the created and not as the creator. We can know for absolute sure that we have eternal life and will be in heaven at death, but we are also capable of falling away as Jesus and Paul state over and over again.

Mulls feels that he is absolutely sure he is saved. I don't doubt it. Mulls is also absolutely sure that he will never fall into that sin which causes death (1 John 5), the sin which Paul states that not even prayer does good (for which we need reconciliation). For sin that is not mortal, we know that "if we ask anything according to His will he hears us" but "there is a sin which is mortal; I do not say one is to pray for that" (1 John 5:14,16). This I don't know that he can be so sure of.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Brother Adam]

Oh, I apologize also if you feel I ever ignore yours or anyones questions. I am now in intensive summer classes so with the time I have I try to answer the questions I feel I can be the most help on and try to leave other questions to those that know the area the best first. Such is the nature of internet questions. As soon as Intensive Biblical Greek (4 semesters in 9 weeks) begins I likely will hardly be on at all.