Aloysius Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 that is how I read the Catechism myself. that paragraph troubled me given the nature of EENS, I looked deeper into what it actually said, and realized that the Catechism does not teach that Muslims actually have the faith of Abraham. I am simply quoting others more capable of explaining this than myself. Also, I consider Apo and CatholicCulture more convincing sources. I read the thread, and believe I posted a few times though I do not recall, and you provided no adequate rebuttal to Apotheon. The Catechism's wording is quite clear and deliberate, and it does not say that Muslims have the faith of Abraham. I ultimately concluded the entire debate was rediculous basically one saying "they have the same god with differences" (how can the same God have differences?) and the other saying "they have a different god" when read in the light of the previous 2000 years of Catholic Teaching, the catechism clearly says that the relationship to the muslims is strong insomuch as the muslims profess to hold the faith of abraham. This is a good thing, and insomuch as they claim to hold the faith of abraham there is common ground and partial bits of truth from the faith of abraham in their religion. I hold an opinion based upon the consistent 2000 year teaching of the Catholic Church through which we ought to interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catechism is very clear, saying that our relationship to the muslims is found in their profession to hold the faith of abraham and not a full connection where they actually do hold the faith of abraham. to say they do hold the faith of abraham would break away from the consistent teaching of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 Agreed. Appy spent a hour one day explaining the reasons they hold a different faith. Since he is a theologian I go with his explanations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl']Bull. There is nothing disobedient except in your own mind. Have you not heard faithful Bishops say the very same thing? Do you not see the header at the top of this page?[/quote] [quote name='Catholic Encyclopedia']It must be obvious, however, that while private moral certainty of their sanctity and possession of heavenly glory may suffice for private veneration of the saints, it cannot suffice for public and common acts of that kind. No member of a social body may, independently of its authority, perform an act proper to that body. It follows naturally that for the public veneration of the saints the ecclesiastical authority of the pastors and rulers of the Church was constantly required. The Church had at heart, indeed, the honour of the martyrs, but she did not therefore grant liturgical honours indiscriminately to all those who had died for the Faith. St. Optatus of Mileve, writing at the end of the fourth century, tells us (De Schism, Donat., I, xvi, in P.L., XI, 916-917) of a certain noble lady, Lucilla, who was reprehended by Caecilianus, Archdeacon of Carthage, for having kissed before Holy Communion the bones of one who was either not a martyr or whose right to the title was unproved.[/quote] Hmm... the Catholic Encyclopedia or Cheryl... the Catholic Encyclopedia or the Phatmass header... I think I'll go with the Catholic Encyclopedia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 Doesn't "public" in this context mean "in a church setting" not "out where people can see it"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 29 2005, 10:47 PM'] Agreed. Appy spent a hour one day explaining the reasons they hold a different faith. Since he is a theologian I go with his explanations. [/quote] And I am chopped liver.....whatever.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 the more i read this thread, the more uncomfortable i am. Who are we to sit an argue with eachother whether someone is in Heaven or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 [quote name='Good Friday' date='May 29 2005, 08:25 PM'] In the meantime, I am of the opinion that Catholics should refrain from calling him Pope John Paul the Great until after he is canonized. [/quote] Declaring him a saint is the church's affair, declaring him 'the great' belongs to the people, and in no way does it have to be influenced by his sainthood according to the church. John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! John Paul the GREAT! Jean-Paul le GRAND! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 [quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 30 2005, 07:54 AM'] the more i read this thread, the more uncomfortable i am. Who are we to sit an argue with eachother whether someone is in Heaven or not? [/quote] You are right. We can only know who is in heaven. We cannot know who is not. The way that we know who is in heaven is by his or her cannonization. The Church will tell us. Anything else is speculation and conjecture. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 And with that I believe this thread is concluded. Please return your chairs to their upright positions and pass your pillows and headphones to our flight attendants who will secure these items for you. It has been a pleasure flying with you here at Phatmass airlines and we wish you a safe trip to your final destination. Good day to you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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