crazy protestant quotes

[Aloysius]

there is culpable and inculpable ignorance (vincible and invincible in modern terminology but I think that term confuses the issue and the traditional words convey it much better)

to be culpably ignorant it must be your fault that you are ignorant of the truth.
to be inculpably ignorant it must not be your fault that you are ignorant of the truth.

to see whether it is your "fault" see my explanations of the synonym of "fault" above-- culpability.

EENS, go through my posts and find one thing you think cannot be found in magisterial teaching pre-vatican ii. I will provide you with the pre-vatican ii understanding.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

A.) I do not own the Hindu scriptures

B.) Hinduism is wrong Catholicism is not.

[Aloysius]

oh boy. let's not even go down that road, there's no point in comparing this to hinduism (though valiant effort hsmom)

I defy you to find one thing in my posts on this thread that is not pre-vatican ii.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

you guys have convinced me actually. Because this proves that the church has always thought of itself as a veichel salvation for all people. SO either the church is wrong or the church can save people who are not "members" of the faith. I think the church is right. But now the question is how much ignorance does it take to be saved?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 2 2005, 09:19 PM'] SO either the church is wrong or the church can save people who are not "members" of the faith. I think the church is right. But now the question is how much ignorance does it take to be saved? [/quote]
Christ is the one who saves people EENS. The Church is the Bride of Christ that acts as a bridge for all to her spouse.

[Aloysius]

Paph, EENS is right actually. why? because there is no difference between Christ and His Church. the two cannot be set apart from each other. What the Church does on earth is what Christ does on earth (I speak of course of the Divine side of the Church, not the imperfect human face)

ignorance doesn't save. rad-trads will kill you on that point (though many people still try to argue with them on it, they convinced me)

what saves is the treasury of grace found only in the Catholic Church. God gives it to humanity though the Church.

through inculpable ignorance, one is not damned.
then one may be saved through the Church. baptism and faith in Christ connect one with the Church and thus salvitic grace can flow through (if their soul is not dead through mortal sin, this gives new understanding to when St. Paul says not to pray for those who have committed deadly sin, i.e. they're not connected to the Church)

so if inculpable ignorance is established in anyone, that doesn't mean they're saved. that means that God doesn't beaver dam them for not being in His Church. if they have some connection to the Church implicitly, there is the possibility of salvation through the Church. if there is no connection to the Church.. well they're not necessarily damned. they will be judged by the natural law written on the hearts of man, but without the connection to salvtic grace I believe in limbo (thus the unbaptized inculpably ignorant). others simply hope that if they are inculpably ignorant, there may be some way for them to be connected to the Church. there are speculations that are acceptable in an orthodox view, but I personally see such unbaptized inculpably ignorant as limbo-bound.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Jun 2 2005, 04:03 PM'] In other words, don't fast...or pray (when it's difficult or "inconvenient")...or take on the yoke of marriage or ordination or any other challenging life...or get a job...or get out of bed in the morning... [/quote]
No offense Raph but I think that you are setting up a straw man there...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote] Christ is the one who saves people EENS. The Church is the Bride of Christ that acts as a bridge for all to her spouse. [/quote]

excuse that i was not thinking sorry.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

so if your not damned where do you go when you die?

[sweetpea316]

Thank you all for replying...it's helped me understand a lot actually.
And that is a good point made...about how just because there is information out there, doesn't mean everyone will use it and whatnot. I know that up until recently, the only thing I knew about Catholicism was the stereotypes and what I'd heard in my church. But since REALLY learning about it and studying it, I've been coming to realize that just because its how I've been raised, doesn't mean that its totally correct. (heh, try telling my parents that though...) Anyways, thanks again, yall really have helped me out. Thanks for your open minds and hearts; its great to have people like you as I journey to find the truth. God bless.

[Aloysius]

read my edit, there is nothing necessarily wrong with your statement. the Church is the mystical body of Christ. Christ saves through His Church, His Church saves through Christ. the two are one in the same.

and as for the fact that the Church is the bride of CHrist.. well Eve was the bride of Adam but as Adam said to Eve so Christ can say to the Church "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh"

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

so basically your saying that if you are incupably ignorant than the church will give you special graces so you can be saved? is this dogma?

and how is incullpabile ignorance defined?

[Paphnutius]

Indeed but I think it is an important disticntion that the Church can only act in such a way because of Christ.

I agree with what you said Aloysius as Pope Benedict put it in Dominus Jesus (sorry about bringing this document up again, for some reason I am on a big kick about it lately)

16. The Lord Jesus, the only Saviour, did not only establish a simple community of disciples, but constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: he himself is in the Church and the Church is in him (cf. Jn 15:1ff.; Gal 3:28; Eph 4:15-16; Acts 9:5). Therefore, the fullness of Christ's salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord. Indeed, Jesus Christ continues his presence and his work of salvation in the Church and by means of the Church (cf. Col 1:24-27),47 which is his body (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-13, 27; Col 1:18).48 And thus, just as the head and members of a living body, though not identical, are inseparable, so too Christ and the Church can neither be confused nor separated, and constitute a single "whole Christ".49 This same inseparability is also expressed in the New Testament by the analogy of the Church as the Bride of Christ (cf. 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-29; Rev 21:2,9).50