Suicide

[Lil Red]

are people who commit suicide automatically bound for hell?

[Cam42]

[quote name='CCC 2282']If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.[/quote]

[quote name='CCC 2283']We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.[/quote]

What is the reasoning for committing suicide? That is the question...not is committing suicide a reason to send to hell....

[Thy Geekdom Come]

No. It used to be the rule that they could not be buried on sacred ground, but given our knowledge of psychology, we know that many people who commit suicide may not have done so with full use of mind and will.

We must hope and pray that they may be shown mercy.

[Semperviva]

Yeah...the (incredibly stupid) movie Kingdom of Heaven (kinda) shows how sucky it must have been when they diden't have the knowledge that some people aren't culpable for this sin (because of mental issues, etc), but it kinda gives me hope, haha, you know for Van Gogh and all the cool people that hopefully are in heaven (hemingway, plath, van gogh- why is it always writers and artists? i'm doomed... jk)

[picchick]

Although me must rely on the Mercy of God. We must look at the mental state of the person. I mean if the person is crazy and doesn't know the gravity of the sin then he is not in full knowledge of it. However, if you know that it is wrong. You have read that it is wrong then you have some more responsiblity.

Meg

[kaidoh]

i dont think so. I hope my 10 years of thinkin about it, doesnt do the same, ummmmmm

[picchick]

It depends on the state of mind.

I also forgot about the state of the person at the time too. Let's say that the person does the actual act but then regrets it and then repents on his death bed. This would be a God call.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 20 2005, 06:59 PM']Yeah...the (incredibly stupid) movie Kingdom of Heaven (kinda) shows how sucky it must have been when they diden't have the knowledge that some people aren't culpable for this sin (because of mental issues, etc), but it kinda gives me hope, haha, you know for Van Gogh and all the cool people that hopefully are in heaven (hemingway, plath, van gogh- why is it always writers and artists? i'm doomed... jk)
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They always knew thatthere where crazy people, an actually in the middle ages the Crazy where not treated badly, however they where not the gigantic pansy's we are with always assuming that everyone who killed themselves was some how not culpable. I am personally offended that we bury suicides who have not been previously identified as insane in sacred ground Suicide is the most grievous of sins for a multitude of reasons, but most importantly as Chesterton says, while a murderer murders a single person a suicide murders the entire world. Think about it.

[homeschoolmom]

The better question, Lil Red, is why do you ask?

[Guest Eremite]

I have felt, more than once, the impulse of despair that would spur someone to committ suicide. Personally, because of the knowledge I have of hell and justice, I could never do it. But if I were one of the millions of people who grew up basically believing that there is no point to life, I think I would committ suicide. Why go through all this? When I think of my own problems, I can't imagine what it's like for people who have problems 10 times worse, and no knowledge of faith and mercy. A teenager in my hometown blew his brains out some years ago because his mother died of AIDS, and he was all alone. The desire to be with someone who has died is a huge impetus for suicide.

Suicide is wrong. But despair is a real thing, and the mercy of God is great. We can only commend their souls to him. He will do what is right.

[Didacus]

The justice of God is perfect, thus all obtain what is perfectly deserved.

I agree that faith is the one great deterant from suicide... when you look at it, nothing else really fits the bill to adequateely convince someone that suicide is not an option.

On a side-note:
During the 18th century, England had a law that penalized attempted suicide with capital punishement.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jun 21 2005, 08:26 AM']On a side-note:
During the 18th century, England had a law that penalized attempted suicide with capital punishement.
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[curtins]

[quote name='picchick' date='Jun 21 2005, 12:15 AM']It depends on the state of mind. 

I also forgot about the state of the person at the time too. Let's say that the person does the actual act but then regrets it and then repents on his death bed.  This would be a God call.
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but wouldnt he be dead?

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='curtins' date='Jun 21 2005, 09:36 AM']but wouldnt he be dead?
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Not all suicide attempts are "successful", and its not always a speedy death.

[Semperviva]

[QUOTE]

Cool, I diden't know that, about respecting crazy people( diden't mean at all to imply that people were crazy in the Middle Ages) And, I think the reason Chesterton was able to speak about what really suicide is, is from experience of his own desire to kill himself. I agree with him in this instance, but not all suicide attempts were/are as lucid as he was in order to realize the true meaning of their actions. Chesterton did not go through with it. Why? He had enough reasoning power and perhaps actual grace to realize the grave-ness of the act. (I think perhaps it may not even be against a tenet of natural law, I dunno- but think of how many cultures see did see suicide as valiant and courageous, samarai, for ex.) Anyone that does go through with it (I think) must have serious mental imbalances-and maybe I am excusing them, in a way, yes. Eremite mentioned the despair, that the way one feels whe desiring to kill oneself IS precisely a blindness to reality that makes one logically conclude there is NO reason to live. So, as someone who has experienced this desire I will tell you it is something I only prevented because I knew it was gravely disordered...however, someone unaware of this? I don't see how they can be blamed since their mental state blinds them.

[Carrie]

"Crazy" seems like a harsh word. How about using "mental disabilities?"

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jun 21 2005, 10:11 AM']"Crazy" seems like a harsh word.  How about using "mental disabilities?"
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How about we call a duck a duck and not a Feathered avian which normally inhabits wetlands, has a broad, flat bill, and webbed feet. It distinguished from the Goose by the shape of bill, the goose's being more pointed and shorter.

A crazy person is crazy, mental disabilities is an atrocious term, most people have mental disabilities of one form or another but most people are not crazy. If you kill youself culpability is relaxed for those who are CRAZY not for the guy who scores 15 points lower in math than his IQ would indicate he should ( which is the requirment for learning disabilities-- which I will remind you is a mental disability). I don't know whatthe problem is with people who can't seem to use the wonderful words given usby our anglosaxon linguistic ancestors. The word is crazy because it describes crazy people not all the people with "mental disabilites"

[Carrie]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 21 2005, 12:25 PM']How about we call a duck a duck and not a  Feathered avian which normally inhabits wetlands, has a broad, flat bill,  and webbed feet. It distinguished from the Goose by the shape of bill, the goose's being more pointed and shorter.

A crazy person is crazy, mental disabilities is an atrocious term, most people have mental disabilities of one form or another but most people are not crazy. If you kill youself  culpability is relaxed for those who are CRAZY not for the guy who scores 15 points lower in math than his IQ would indicate he should ( which is the requirment for learning disabilities-- which I will remind you is a mental disability). I don't know whatthe problem is with people who can't seem to use the wonderful words given usby our anglosaxon linguistic ancestors. The word is crazy because it describes crazy people not all the  people with "mental disabilites"
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I'm sure any suicidal client I have would love to be labeled as crazy.

Many people who committ suicide have Major Depressive Disorder, which is called a mental disability, not crazy. Maybe we should revamp the DSM-IV to simply things and label people as crazy, huh?. And thanks, but I know what a learning disability is.

Many people assume that Schizophrenics are crazy, but that's not true either. Using such a label, even if given to us by our anglosaxon linguistic ancestors, is offensive and outdated. Language and labels have changed over time, as we progress and learn more about the human mind.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jun 21 2005, 11:34 AM']I'm sure any suicidal client I have would love to be labeled as crazy.

Many people who committ suicide have Major Depressive Disorder, which is called a mental disability, not crazy.  Maybe we should revamp the DSM-IV to simply things and label people as crazy, huh?.  And thanks, but I know what a learning disability is.   

Many people assume that Schizophrenics are crazy, but that's not true either.  Using such a label, even if given to us by our anglosaxon linguistic ancestors, is offensive and outdated.  Language and labels have changed over time, as we progress and learn more about the human mind.
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[quote]I'm sure any suicidal client I have would love to be labeled as crazy. [/quote]

I don't care whether they love to be "labled" as crazy or not, anymore than I care is a duck would prefer to be refered to as above. Crazy is crazy.

[quote]Many people who committ suicide have Major Depressive Disorder, which is called a mental disability, not crazy.  Maybe we should revamp the DSM-IV to simply things and label people as crazy, huh?.  And thanks, but I know what a learning disability is. [/quote]



Crazy means to be effected with madness or insane, insane means to have a presistant mental derangment. That is what it is, I could care less about what the DSM-IV says, I think the american phsycological assosiation is atrocious as well. The whole damnable thing should be dismantaled. So throwing that around means little to me.

[quote]Many people assume that Schizophrenics are crazy, but that's not true either.  Using such a label, even if given to us by our anglosaxon linguistic ancestors, is offensive and outdated.  Language and labels have changed over time, as we progress and learn more about the human mind.[/quote]

Schizophrenics are crazy, or if you would prefer insane( oh I'm sorry thats not in scientific use anymore either but not because it is wrong more because phsycologist are involved in a totally rediculous philosophical system) we can use that also. The microcatogorizing of things does not render the general catagory of what they are incorrect, someone beiong offended by being called crazy is like someone being offended by being called a mammal--- ridiculous. As for being offensive I find you offensive, I find the push to make everything that is said politically correct offensive, I find the APA's push to catorgorize everything about the human mind into smaller and smaller catagories that have less and less actual meaning offensive. It isn't progress it is digression, we understand more about the human Brain but the Brain is not the Mind, and the phycological insistance on that materialist propoganda is at the root of many of our social problems.

Edited June 21, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Didacus]

Suicide Solution

Wine is fine but whiskey's quicker
Suicide is slow with liquor
Take a bottle and drown your sorrows
Then it floods away tomorrows

Evil thoughts and evil doings
Cold, alone you hang in ruins
Thought that you'd escape the reaper
You can't escape the Master Keeper

'Cause you feel like you're living a lie
Such a shame who's to blame and you're wondering why
Then you ask from your cask us there life after birth
What you sow can mean Hell on this earth



Now you live inside a bottle
The reaper's traveling at full throttle
It's catching you but you don't see
The reaper is you and the reaper is me

Breaking laws, knocking doors
But there's no one at home
Made your bed, rest your head
But you lie there and moan
Where to hide, Suicide is the only way out
Don't you know what it's really about

Repeat 1st verse


by OZZY OZBORNE - great in his own twisted little way... :pitchfork

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