Kilroy the Ninja Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Jun 21 2005, 02:36 PM']Wow... this sorta turned into a poo throwing contest... [right][snapback]618325[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Leave Luther out of this.
Aloysius Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Carrie' date='Jun 21 2005, 03:37 PM']I never said merely a chemical imbalance. If you read my last post, I clearly said a factor. [right][snapback]618326[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I was actually defending you by clarifying in an attempt to reconcile it to Don John's concerns. your welcome
Carrie Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 21 2005, 04:42 PM']I was actually defending you by clarifying in an attempt to reconcile it to Don John's concerns. your welcome [right][snapback]618336[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thank you! I suppose I read it so fast, I missed that you were defending me, haha!
homeschoolmom Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jun 21 2005, 02:39 PM']Leave Luther out of this. [right][snapback]618329[/snapback][/right] [/quote] :rotfl:
Semperviva Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 Except for the case of a Catholic who knows suicide is a mortal sin and does it anyways with full consent, having full reasoning capacities, etc I don't see how suicide could ever be something a person would be culpable for, just because of the kindof intense mental instability there... plus it doesn't seem like even the Catholic described above could even be fully reasonable if he is in such a state as to disregard eternity-he must be messed up state...yes, we somewhat make the same kindof messed up decision when we commit any grave sin, but the point is that THIS grave sin doesn't just involve seperation from God in that sin, inherently it involves seperation from life as well, so in the same moment you would be required to say I reject God-yet i am going to Him to face damnation-bring it on! It makes no sense...unless you're so mentally distressed that you can't see that...then it seems plausible
Aloysius Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 for a person who committed suicide to not go to hell their mental state must PREVENT the free excercise of their will and/or completely inhibit their knowledge of good and evil. you don't have to explicitly know it is going to send you to hell to qualify for "full knowledge". you simply must fully know that it is wrong. that qualification is not that hard to meet, unless of course a mental disorder has inhibited your knowledge of good and evil by currupting the faculties through which your soul understands such things.
Socrates Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 21 2005, 02:44 PM']Except for the case of a Catholic who knows suicide is a mortal sin and does it anyways with full consent, having full reasoning capacities, etc I don't see how suicide could ever be something a person would be culpable for, just because of the kindof intense mental instability there... plus it doesn't seem like even the Catholic described above could even be fully reasonable if he is in such a state as to disregard eternity-he must be messed up state...yes, we somewhat make the same kindof messed up decision when we commit any grave sin, but the point is that THIS grave sin doesn't just involve seperation from God in that sin, inherently it involves seperation from life as well, so in the same moment you would be required to say I reject God-yet i am going to Him to face damnation-bring it on! It makes no sense...unless you're so mentally distressed that you can't see that...then it seems plausible [right][snapback]618339[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The whole point of [b]not [/b]saying all suicides are automatically damned to hell is that only God can know the interior disposition of one's soul. We mustn't swing in the opposite direction and assume all/most suicides cannot be mortally sinfully because they're obviously not fully culplible for their actions. This mentality can be used to justify [b]any[/b] mortal sin. If we fully took time to think about the consequences of mortal sins, we wouldn't commit them at all, right? One does not have to willfully, consciously reject God and choose eternal damnation for a sin to be mortal! Edited June 21, 2005 by Socrates
Semperviva Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 yes! thats what i mean! like what if their reasoning leads them to see something wrong as good-thats the only way it makes sense--like romeo and juliet wanting to be together-they were like oh this the highest good! so confused...
Semperviva Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 i don't mean to say no-one who commits suicide is culpable or to try and judge souls or justify mortal sin- i guess i'm just confused about reason really. it seems so fickle and like you said if we really realized what we were doing we would never commit mortal sin- so HOW can we ever be culpable for it if we don't realize the full gravity? so confused...
Aloysius Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 you just have to know it's wrong and do it anyway. it's very possible for a person to know suicide is wrong and do it anyway. they don't need to explitly know or understand that it will send them to eternal damnation for them to have full knowledge that it is wrong.
Socrates Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 21 2005, 02:58 PM']yes! thats what i mean! like what if their reasoning leads them to see something wrong as good-thats the only way it makes sense--like romeo and juliet wanting to be together-they were like oh this the highest good! so confused... [right][snapback]618354[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Romeo and Juliet are together in eternity . . . burning in hell! It's very easy to rationalize or justify sin - we do it all the time. Doens't excuse the sin.
Semperviva Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 but Aloysius said if one was confused about good or evil, then it may take away culpality-and they saw it as good, even though its not... so woulden't that mean they were confused about good and evil? (still confused... not trying to justify sin)
Aloysius Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 not confused, if your intellect was inhibited so that you had not the ability to know. Romeo and Juliet knew it was wrong to kill themselves and did it anyway. Their intellects were not inhibited by some mental disorder, they chose wrong over some unfortunate circumstances of life. now, if somehow they had always been taught that suicide was not wrong and they firmly believed it not wrong at all, then they may not have been culpable for killing themselves. or if a mental disorder impaired their intellect and they were unable to know that killing yourself is wrong, they would have been not culpable. most everyone knows killing yourself is wrong. it is natural law written on your heart.
Socrates Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 21 2005, 03:27 PM']most everyone knows killing yourself is wrong. it is natural law written on your heart. [right][snapback]618389[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What about the Japanese ideal of death before dishonor?
Aloysius Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 that could be a case of being taught something is right all your life and thus firmly believing it, which I made allowance for. I said "most" everyone knows. and in the case of the Japanese warrior death before dishonor (assuming we're talking about him killing himself not risking his life in battle) it depends. He may know killing himself is contrary to the nature and good, but thinks it is better to do that wrong than to have the wrong of dishonor. In such a case, the requirement of full knowledge would still be fulfilled for culpability. choosing the lesser of two wrongs still means you know the one you choose is wrong. however, again, such a samurai may have firmly believed it not to be wrong, and never known it to be wrong in any way shape or form. we can never really know until we die, now can we?
Socrates Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 21 2005, 03:37 PM']that could be a case of being taught something is right all your life and thus firmly believing it, which I made allowance for. I said "most" everyone knows. and in the case of the Japanese warrior death before dishonor (assuming we're talking about him killing himself not risking his life in battle) it depends. He may know killing himself is contrary to the nature and good, but thinks it is better to do that wrong than to have the wrong of dishonor. In such a case, the requirement of full knowledge would still be fulfilled for culpability. choosing the lesser of two wrongs still means you know the one you choose is wrong. however, again, such a samurai may have firmly believed it not to be wrong, and never known it to be wrong in any way shape or form. we can never really know until we die, now can we? [right][snapback]618400[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I think the Samarai believed that "honor" is a higher good than life itself.
Aloysius Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 the question isn't what he thought was higher good... the question is if he knew at all that it was wrong. saying honor is a higher good than life in this instance is the same as saying dishonor is a greater bad than suicide. in the one you're affirming both as good, and in the other you are affirming both as bad. if you know it's wrong, even if you're choosing the lesser of two wrongs, you still have full knowledge that it is wrong. It is not relative to what you think of other things.
Don John of Austria Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Carrie' date='Jun 21 2005, 02:37 PM']I never said merely a chemical imbalance. If you read my last post, I clearly said a factor. [right][snapback]618326[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You said: [quote]Yes, a chemical imbalance can create a mental problem. [/quote] That is what you said. Well a chemical imbalance cannot effect you soul so therefore you must belive that the Mind and the Brain are one. That is the Materialist position and is iminical to Catholicism. Now to be fair I don't think all psychology is horrid quackary but I think true psychology is essintially dead as it has become dominated by the organic materialist to the point where it just another facet of the Materialist medical establisment. Mental problems cannot be caused by an organic unbalance, organic unbalances may infact be a result of mental imbalances butthat is an entirely differant thing. Now as for the effect of Chemicals on ones emotions, I would contend that the emotions are much more organicly linked than the Will, not because they are a faculty of the Body but because they are dependent on the senses for stimulous. As that stimulous is unbalanced so can the emotions become unbalanced but that is not the same as being insane because one always chooses how to react to those emotions, an insane person, a crazy person is someone who's soul itself is unbalanced and is no longer capable of making such choices.
Don John of Austria Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 21 2005, 03:30 PM']What about the Japanese ideal of death before dishonor? [right][snapback]618390[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I already adressed that.
philothea Posted June 22, 2005 Posted June 22, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 21 2005, 06:35 PM']Well a chemical imbalance cannot effect you soul [. . .] [right][snapback]618545[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Sorry to pick out a single phrase like this, but it's really making me think. So would said chemical imbalance be equivalent to another bodily injury? It might hinder your ability to act, but it doesn't change your being -- as you said, your soul? Hmm. Nice thought. (Not saying I don't agree, I just never thought that way before.)
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