Some people won't go to Heaven

[Semperviva]

I'm so sorry to be bothering ppl with all my obnoxious ideas theories, questions, but I've been wondering about this for two years now:


In Theology 101, freshman year, my professor said,

[i]some people, God deems to not receive grace, (contingent will?? i forget) either actual or sanctifying, because we choose [b]not[/b] to pray for them, ie their grace reception depends on our responsivness to grace and whether or not we pray, etc etc... [/i]

I asked him, if as a result of this doctrine, some people just won't go to Heaven as a fault of ours for notprayijng for lost souls, sinners, or whoever it is God will us to pray for. [i]He said yes, some people won't go to Heaven because of our not praying for them[/i]...I am still somewhat confused about this...Some other kids at college thought he might be wrong on this point...or at least that there is some other piece to the puzzle...?

[Semperviva]

............nobody knows? shocker...LOL

[philothea]

I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than me would answer.

I think the idea may be correct though. For example, in St. Faustina Kowalska's diary, Jesus tells her that if she fails in her mission, she will be personally responsible for the loss of a great many souls.

(Talk about pressure...)

[Apotheoun]

Damnation is the fault of the one who is damned.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:39 PM']Damnation is the fault of the one who is damned.
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No kidding...?

LOL...I mean, more along the lines of its the person's fault [i]and[/i] some-one else's, say mine since I'm so selfish I never remember to pray for anyone else...Aaaagh Basically the question I meant was...are some people damned through our fault and sinfullness, as well as their own?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:46 PM']No kidding...?

LOL...I mean, more along the lines of its the person's fault [i]and[/i] some-one else's, say mine since I'm so selfish I never remember to pray for anyone else...Aaaagh   Basically the question I meant was...are some people damned through our fault and sinfullness, as well as their own?
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No.

[philothea]

I think maybe rephrasing would clarify. Yes, people are damned through their own fault. But maybe it's in our power to help save them from the trouble they've got themselves into. Why else do we pray for sinners?

Obviously we have all damned ourselves, and Jesus saves us. Continually.

I believe that through the shared grace of the communion of saints, if someone neglects their obligations, or fails to pray... well, that might mean that some sinner doesn't get the extra grace he needs to repent of his sin and accept the mercy of God.

Maybe?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:54 PM']I think maybe rephrasing would clarify.  Yes, people are damned through their own fault.  But maybe it's in our power to help save them from the trouble they've got themselves into.  Why else do we pray for sinners?

Obviously we have all damned ourselves, and Jesus saves us.  Continually.

I believe that through the shared grace of the communion of saints, if someone neglects their obligations, or fails to pray... well, that might mean that some sinner doesn't get the extra grace he needs to repent of his sin and accept the mercy of God.

Maybe?
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Certainly we can pray for other people, and we should pray for other people, but it is not in our power to beaver dam anyone. Sin is by definition a personal reality, and so each man's sins, both mortal and venial, are his and his alone.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:54 PM'][. . .]
I believe that through the shared grace of the communion of saints, if someone neglects their obligations, or fails to pray... well, that might mean that some sinner doesn't get the extra grace he needs to repent of his sin and accept the mercy of God.

Maybe?
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God gives sufficient grace to every man so that he may be saved, for as the Council of Quiersy (AD 853) declared against Gottschalk and the Predestinarians, one must believe that the "Omnipotent God wishes all men without exception to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4) although not all will be saved. However, that certain ones are saved, is the gift of the one [i.e., God] who saves; that certain one perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish." [[u]The Sources of Catholic Dogma[/u], page 127]

[philothea]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:06 PM']God gives sufficient grace to every man so that he may be saved, for as the Council of Quiersy (AD 853) declared against Gottschalk and the Predestinarians, one must believe that the "Omnipotent God wishes all men without exception to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4) although not all will be saved. However, that certain ones are saved, is the gift of the one [i.e., God] who saves; that certain one perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish." [[u]The Sources of Catholic Dogma[/u], page 127]
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I understand -- well, for some not-very-comprehensive meaning of the word "understand". My imaginary scenario would be when someone had already rejected the graces sufficient for their salvation.

Thank you for clarifying.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:38 PM']In St. Faustina Kowalska's diary, Jesus tells her that if she fails in her mission, she will be personally responsible for the loss of a great many souls.

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If Christ said this to St Faustina, it probly applies to each of us in our mission.

Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 09:15 PM']If Christ said this to St Faustina, it probly applies to all, perhaps to a lesser degree, though.
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Private revelation is not binding on anyone, and so it has no dogmatic value. No man can cause the damnation of any other man.

[philothea]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:15 PM']If Christ said this to St Faustina, it probly applies to each of us in our mission.
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Oh, I don't know about that. St. Faustina was supposed to share the message of Divine Mercy with the world, including the chaplet, the Feast of Mercy, the Hour of Great Mercy, the image, etc. If she had failed, I can see it having a big impact on the world.

I suspect my being rather bad at saying rosaries isn't on the same scale... :ph34r:

[Semperviva]

I don't mean [i]caaause [/i]others damnation, but be a contributing factor in.

Philo-Whoops! Meant to put a [i]PERHAPS[/i] in there somewhere to clarify that not all ppl have the same degree of responsibily as her...oopsie...

Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 09:21 PM']I don't mean [i]caaause [/i]others damnation, but be a contributing factor in.
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Each man's fate is in his own hands.

[angelica]

The Confietor says "I have sinned through my own faults in what I have done and what I have failed to do" Doesn't that mean we can be part of the reason a sinner falls into hell? okay, so we can't beaver dam them, but we had the power to help them outta hell, but didn't exercise the power of prayer, sacrifice, or whatever

I was thinking that was the original question...so God gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved. So lets pretend God me more grace than someone else. I'm supposed to use that grace to pray for that person. If I don't, I sinned by not using God's grace and letting that person fall in hell because she just needed me to use my grace.

I think this was already said in the posts, that we don't cause people to fall in hell. but if we could've helped them out through prayer, than we are at fault.

Edited June 26, 2005 by angelica

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='angelica' date='Jun 25 2005, 09:31 PM']The Confietor says "I have sinned through my own faults in what I have done and what I have failed to do"  Doesn't that mean we can be part of the reason a sinner falls into hell?  okay, so we can't beaver dam them, but we had the power to help them outta hell, but didn't exercise the power of prayer, sacrifice, or whatever

I was thinking that was the original question...so God gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved.  So lets pretend God gave me more grace than someone else.  I'm supposed to use that grace to pray for that  person.  If I don't, I sinned by not using God's grace and letting that person fall in hell because she just needed me to use my grace.

I think this was already said in the posts, that we don't cause people people to fall in hell.  but if we could've helped them out through prayer, than we are at fault.
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No, because sin is always a personal choice. It is each man's responsibility to determine the good and then to do it.

In your second paragraph you spoke about failing to fully utilize the graces you have been given, and in the case you've presented, that would be a failing on your part, which may be imputable to you (God only knows), but it is not something that is imputable to others. You cannot be the cause of another person's damnation, because sin is by definition a personal act.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:22 PM']Each man's fate is in his own hands.
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Yes,
but there is more to it that is covered in Doctrine. The issue you are addressing is not the one I am wondering about...True God wills the salvation of all- this is His Will. But, under his contingent will, I believe, he wills that some be damned...and I am asking about his "willing their damnation" contingently, as a result of us not praying, and so we would share in some of the responsiblity. [i][b] Just as we can share in reonsibility of some-one be saved and being co- redeemers in a slight way, we can be co -damners? [/b][/i]I'm not sure you understand my question, but I don't know how else to ask it... -_-

Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 09:35 PM']Yes,
but there is more to it that is covered in Doctrine.  The issue you are addressing is not the one I am wondering about...True God wills the salvation of all- this is His Will.  But, under his contingent will, I believe, he wills that some be damned...and I am asking about his "willing their damnation" contingently, as a result of us not praying, and so we would share in some of the responsiblity. [i][b] Just as we can share in reonsibility of some-one be saved and being co- redeemers in a slight way, we can be co -damners? [/b][/i]I'm not sure you understand my question, but I don't know how else to ask it... -_-
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Salvation is a particular exercise, in other words, it is particular to each man, and neither you nor I can be the cause of the loss of salvation for anyone else.

Co-redeemers is not co-saviors. As I indicated above, redemption is universal, salvation is particular.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:40 PM']Salvation is a particular exercise, in other words, it is particular to each man, and neither you nor I can be the [b]cause [/b]of the loss of salvation for anyone else. 


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I am not saying [b]cause...[/b] in that sense, but we [i]doo[/i] affect it, don't we?