Some people won't go to Heaven

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 09:44 PM']I am not saying [b]cause...[/b] in that sense, but we [i]doo[/i] affect it, don't we?
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I know, and what I am doing is protecting the absolute inviolability of the personal nature of actions, whether they be actions leading to salvation or damnation.

[Apotheoun]

If a man is damned because of something done or not done by another person, it follows that when he stands before the bar of judgment at the end of the age, he could simply say, "I am not responsible for my damnation, this other person did not pray for me; consequently, I must be allowed to enter into the beatific vision."

[angelica]

Okay, so nobody causes someone to fall into hell
“neither you nor I can be the cause of the loss of salvation for anyone else.”

So what is the correct theological explanation of sinner A persuading sinner B to commit a murder. Sinner B would not have participated at all if sinner A had not brought the idea to his head in the first place. Sinner B fully made his own decision though, and would cause his own damnation if he died unrepentant. But what about sinner A, doesn’t he have some cause for the loss of salvation? Like parents who are bad examples to children. If the parents had been saintly examples, the children might have turned out better, perhaps saints. Its still the choice of the kids to be like the bad parents or not. But don’t the parents and sinner A have fault?

I guess what I am beginning to understand though—let me see if I got this straight so I’m going to pretend again. sinner A is NOT the cause of loss of salvation for sinner B. Okay, so they both die unrepentant. Sinner A is before God and gets sent to hell for being a bad example to sinner B but sinner A goes to hell not because he made sinner B get the murderous idea, but because he was a bad example and died unrepentant. Sinner B is before God and he is going to hell because he freely chose to do the murder. Sinner A is NOT at fault for sinner B going to hell—he is at fault for choosing to murder, be unrepentant and be a bad example.

Is that right? If so, I think I get it! Technically speaking, we can be bad examples to others or not pray for them, if that's the case, but that is our own sin and the sin is their sin....Thanks for the explanations. I am going to go and study theology right now…

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:54 PM']If a man is damned because of something done or not done by another person, it follows that when he stands before the bar of judgment at the end of the age, he could simply say, "I am not responsible for my damnation, this other person did not pray for me; consequently, I must be allowed to enter into the beatific vision."
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It might. Like I said, I specifically asked my professor after class, who has taken an oath to be faithful to the Magesterium before the bishop, and he said to the effect of...God has set things in such a way that He desires that some people be saved through the prayers of others and if we neglect these prayers, it's possible that the lost soul in question will be damned, of his own choice, yet he did not have the [b][i]AID[/i][/b] of the actual grace, of his own WILL he was damned, at the same time. This is what he said is doctrine, but like u said it seems to imply the person is not responsible, but it can't imply that, and so I wonder still what the missing piece of this doctrine is...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:11 PM']It might.  Like I said, I specifically asked my professor after class, who has taken an oath to be faithful to the Magesterium before the bishop, and he said to the effect of...God has set things in such a way that He desires that some people be saved through the prayers of others and if we neglect these prayers, it's possible that the lost soul in question will be damned, of his own choice, yet he did not have the [b][i]AID[/i][/b] of the actual grace, of his own WILL he was damned, at the same time.  This is what he said is doctrine, but like u said it seems to imply the person is not responsible, but it can't imply that, and so I wonder still what the missing piece of this doctrine is...
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I don't share the opinion of your professor.

[Dave]

Our Lady of Fatima told Lucia, Blessed Jacinta, and Blessed Francisco that so many people go to hell because they have no one to pray for them.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Dave' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:22 PM']Our Lady of Fatima told Lucia, Blessed Jacinta, and Blessed Francisco that so many people go to hell because they have no one to pray for them.
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As I said earlier in this thread. All public revelation, which is binding upon all men, ceased with the death of the last Apostle. Consequently, private revelation is binding upon no one.

[jasJis]

Interesting thread. I think that if Apotheon, the Proffessor, and Semperviva sat in a living room, they would come to agreement.
Semper, keep in mind we may have limited responsibility for the sins of others, but that doesn't mean it's Mortal sin that would beaver dam us. Every person is given the opportunity to accept Salvific Grace in whatever means and ways that God may choose. Normally, this grace is channeld through the Church. But we have free will and can reject Salvific Grace. God is infinitely patient and presents us with multible opportunities to respond or accept His grace. God gives weight and real consequence to our actions and chooses to work or offer His grace through us. There are times that we individuals, are intended (by God's own Will) to serve God and be sources of grace through words, action, or prayer. If we fail to follow God's Will in these instances, these people may not receive all the opportunities to accept Salvific Grace as God may have intended. God is merciful and wonderful and perfect. His will is not limited by our Sins unless He allows it. We aren't damned for our sin unless it is committed with our full will and intent. And it only takes one unrepented Mortal Sin to beaver dam us. God gives everyone sufficient opportunity to repent. But God is exceedingly generous. Catholics, because of His graces through the Church, have tons and tons of opportunities to repent and/or accept Grace. We are the Church and God works though us for others. If the other isn't closely tied to the Church, we may be one of the fewer opportunities of Grace, but we aren't the only ones. We will suffer the agony of guilt and sorrow when we are received by Jesus in heaven and learned when we failed, but Jesus will make us whole and accept us into His arms unless we've committed mortal sins and intentionally, with consent of our will, refused to pray for these people.

[Semperviva]

"With the Holy Rosary,
We will sanctify ourselves,
[b]and obtain the salvation of many souls[/b].” -Sr. Lucia

...Apoth, although this is an idea promulgated by private revelations to the children at Fatima, it is not exactly a new idea.
We pray for others, we contribute in their salvation...but, we often don't....
Does it work both ways? Jas, because God does not will anyone's damnation He, in His mercy would provide other oppurtunities of grace, grazie...[color=orange]everyone pray for lost souls, anyway![/color]

Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 26 2005, 10:07 AM']"With the Holy Rosary,
We will sanctify ourselves,
[b]and obtain the salvation of many souls[/b].” -Sr. Lucia

...Apoth, although this is an idea promulgated by private revelations to the children at Fatima, it is not exactly a new idea.
We pray for others, we contribute in their salvation...but, we often don't....
Does it work both ways? Jas, because God does not will anyone's damnation He, in His mercy would provide other oppurtunities of grace, grazie...[color=orange]everyone pray for lost souls,  anyway![/color]
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You cannot be responsible, in any sense, for the damnation of anyone but yourself.

I agree that we should pray for everyone, it is the other part I disagree with.

[Guest Eremite]

God gives every person enough grace to be saved (one Eastern Saint, who escapes me, noted that God gives every soul more than enough grace to be saved).

However, beyond that, God makes some graces contingent upon the actions of another.

For example, if God has pursued a soul for 10 years, and that person has continually hardened their heart, God would be justified in abandoning them to their sins.

HOWEVER, he considers the prayers and sufferings of another person, and in reward for their spiritual altruism, he does not abandon that soul, but grants it more graces for its conversion.

Thus, although we cannot merit the substantive grace of conversion (something Christ alone could merit), we do merit surplus graces of conversion. Not because God "owes" us anything, in the strict sense, but because he rewards the faithfulness of his servants.

So, although we cannot be the cause of someone's damnation in the strict sense (they must exercise an act of will), we can be the cause of someone's damnation by extension, if we do not carry out the works of mercy God inspires us to carry out (eg, he may call us to pray for one sinner in particular, or one group of sinners).

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 26 2005, 12:34 PM']You cannot be responsible, in any sense, for the damnation of anyone but yourself.
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If I seduced you I would be a contributing FACTOR in your damnation!!!!! Satan is not responsible our sin, but he does contribute a whole heck of a lot to it. Come on!! This is the sense of cause I mean.

"It is inevitable that stumbling-blocks should come, but woe to him [i]through whom they come[/i]! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble"
Lk. 17

[i]note disclaimer: not sayin i would, just tryin to make a point[/i]

Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 26 2005, 10:41 AM']If I seduced you I would be a contributing FACTOR in your damnation!!!!!  Satan is not responsible our sin, but he does contribute a whole heck of a lot to it.  Come on!!  This is the sense of cause I mean.

"It is inevitable that stumbling-blocks should come, but woe to him [i]through whom they come[/i]! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble"
Lk. 17
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I'm a free being, and so my sins are my own.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]If I seduced you I would be a contributing FACTOR in your damnation!!!!! Satan is not responsible our sin, but he does contribute a whole heck of a lot to it. Come on!! This is the sense of cause I mean.[/quote]

You would be a tempter, but not the cause, of my damnation. A person can only be damned because of a free act of his will that chooses something other than God.

We can poke and prod a person's will, but we cannot exercise it. Only they can.

[Semperviva]

exactly, i don't disagree eremite...but anyways, like i said i am not saying i can tamepr with your free will- you choose- but its still not good for me cause i did ( hypothetically) affect sinful behavior in some way!

[Guest Eremite]

Also, consider as well that we can pray and do penance for the grace of conversion after a person is dead, because God is not bound by time, and can apply the grace we merit before that person dies, in anticipation of our good works.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 26 2005, 10:45 AM']exactly, i don't disagree eremite...but anyways, like i said i am not saying i can tamepr with your free will- you choose- but its still not good for me cause i did ( hypothetically) affect sinful behavior in some way!
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Then you persist in your assertion that you bear responsiblity for the damnation of others?

[Semperviva]

definetely [i]partial[/i] responsibility...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 26 2005, 10:48 AM']definetely [i]partial[/i] responsibility...
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That would be a damnable offence as well.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 26 2005, 12:43 PM']I'm a free being, and so my sins are my own.
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"It is inevitable that stumbling-blocks should come, but woe to him through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble"
Lk. 17

Noooo, not just your own! whats the meaning of all this millstone business, then, hhhmm? Why exactly is it better to be thrown into the sea??? this implies a fate worse thandeath if you "lead someone astray"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!